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  1. #11
    Player
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,401
    For the umpteenth time, the problem isn't the Wyvern, it's the master.

    My Wyvern is about 3x more durable than I am. He has about 2k HP, has permanent -40% DT, has a 33/tick regen and a full cure every 90 seconds and a 2-3k Stoneskin every few minutes, I also have Dawn Mulsums that cost me 500g to Synth and heal about 1kk per use. Seriously? 90% of the time my Wyvern dies is because I die and when the master dies, the pet is dismissed. Wyvern durability is really really fine and doesn't need anything.

    What we need is a way to shorten the recast or an emergency call wyvern for those times where your group makes a mistake in the first 5-6min of a fight or battlefield and your group wipes, and thus as a DRG, you are crippled for the next 15 minutes, and you bring the group's DPS down a large amount until that time comes. I'm not saying give us a 10minute Call Wyvern. I'm not saying give us a Deus Ex Draco. I suggested a few times to make Spirit Surge useable without a Wyvern and when doing so, your Wyvern is called and in a powered up state for 60 seconds. Hell even that last part is unnecessary. If I enter an Incursion or something and we all die on the first pull, I'm crippled for 20minutes. I'd gladly sacrifice my SP1 to bring my Wyvern back. Just give us any other option but waiting 20min, even if it's on a 1hour timer and costs us an SP ability. Or maybe put Spirit Surge under Pet Commands and give it a shared timer with a new DRG SP1 called "Rouse Wyvern" aka our old SP2. If you use Rouse Wyvern, it summons your Wyvern. Or if you have a Wyvern out already, Rouse Wyvern becomes unavailable to use, but if you go to pet commands, right at the top would be Spirit Surge. That way we have a dual purpose SP1 with a variable effect depending on the situation. If you need your wyvern alive? Use Rouse Wyvern, if you need a quick burst of DPS? Use Spirit Surge or Fly High.

    So much of DRG's DPS depends on the Wyvern and sometimes the Wyvern dying to Doom/Death(the spell 'Death', or TP move that instantly KO's), or the player dying to Doom/Instant KO completely cripples us.


    DRG + Wyvern is not the best DPS job in the game. But other DPS jobs, when they die, they recover to full power once weakness wears off ~3-5minutes. DRG's, even after being Raised and unweakened, do not recover to full power for up to 20 minutes. If DRG was by far the best DPS in the game, it would be a fair tradeoff, but the damage DRG's deal with their Wyvern is not in accordance with how horrible the penalty is for a DRG being KO'd in the first few minutes of an encounter and thus being unavailable for the remainder of the raid.
    (2)
    Last edited by Ophannus; 06-17-2015 at 02:01 PM.

  2. #12
    Player cengeal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    90
    Character
    Prometus
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Grekumah View Post
    We were able to collect some answers for two of your suggestions.

    - Jump and Call Wyvern
    We currently have no plans to make adjustments in this direction as it'll move away from the concept of dragoons being strong while they maintain their wyvern.

    - Drakesbane
    The Drakesbane weapon skill isn't meant to be used in a skillchain with Stardiver, therefore we will not be making any adjustments with the premise of skillchains in mind.
    This is the problem. We do maintain our wyverns. The problem is when we get one shot we lose our wyverns for nearly 20 minutes. The fact that we lost our wyverns isn't because we were unable to maintain them, but because of either bad party mechanics or just a flat out fail. When we get back into the fight we are crippled DD's for the next 15 minutes. This is one of my biggest fears when going to any event as DRG. Personally I believe my DRG is a great DD, but when my wyvern is dead my damage is crippled, and it is not because I did not maintain my wyvern, but because the party failed. No other job has a setback like this.

    For some reason the Dev team seems to think that DRG is overpowered. This statement is true... against anything weak to piercing. Anything not weak to piercing, DRG is near the middle of the pack, assuming all players are of a similar caliber. Any type of boost would be nice. Maybe a JA that is only able to be used when the wyvern is down. This JA would not be as powerful as having the wyvern out, but it would be an option for when the wyvern is unable to be called back. As I just said, no other job has a setback like this after they die. No other job is punished the same way as DRG is in the case of a party wipe. This delay is hands down the biggest problem with DRG.
    (4)
    Last edited by cengeal; 06-25-2015 at 06:35 AM.

  3. #13
    Player YosemiteYogorockBlondelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Blondelle = Windurst, Windy{S}, Bastok All Completed. YoGoRock: Sandy Rank: 10 Sandy {S}: UnComple.
    Posts
    563
    Character
    Yogorock
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    RUN Lv 66

    A shout out Over To Ophannus as a reminder note about Dawn Mulsums!

    Just thought you may have to be reminded that not everyone can craft Dawn Muslims but there also players who can't afford to buy them from characters bazzars for having them to use for their pets, Just thought you should know but it goes without saying you may already know except don't have a way of knowing that you do know it already!
    (0)
    (Yo-Sim-Mit-Tea is the correct pronunciation. It is how its spoken, folks.) Come over & visit awhile to many posted changes to the life of Vana'dial. You can find past posts found by a link, pops up with Char name highlighted, thanks!
    I'm Wishing to see the Greatness in all players suggesting changes to ffxi ahead, here's to the Future of FFXI, Cheers Mate!!.

  4. #14
    Player
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,401
    Any culinarian over 96 can craft Dawn Mulsum. The ingredients are ridiculously cheap.

    Light Crystal
    1x Grape Juice
    1x White Honey
    1x Holy Water

    I must sound like a broken record, but I feel as though the Dev team thinks the issue with DRG is still wyvern surviviability in content. In truth, Wyverns don't die in content anymore, Dragoons die. When Dragoons die, the Wyvern dies. Spirit Link, Steady Wing, 40% Damage Taken, Wyvern's Defense/Evasion/Magic Defense, Dawn Mulsum are all irrelevant. Sometimes the DRG dies because of their own machinations, but what about when the party or healer is poor? If a DRG is doomed and it isn't removed in time, the DRG will die and the Wyvern dies with him. Should DRG's suffer a 20min nerf to their DPS because another player couldn't cure or remove ailments fast enough? I submit, no. Were there a way such that if a DRG is KO'd when the Wyvern is still alive, upon raising, the Wyvern returns, it would fix DRG forever. Alas, if I am not cured fast enough, or we wipe to content and need to retry, my damage is crippled.

    Since you said they won't shorten the recast:

    Other options:
    -Allow Wyvern to return to their master upon being defeated, so long as the Wyvern was still alive before the Dragoon's defeat, and as long as the Dragoon doesn't zone (i.e Return to Homepoint).
    -Give us an equivalent of "Deus ex Automata"
    -If the Wyvern is KO'd, allow us to use Spirit Surge, which would instead act like a super "Call Wyvern", calling our Wyvern to our side, and invincible to damage for 60seconds, afterwhich it acts like a regular Wyvern pet.
    -Shorten Call Wyvern recast to 10minutes.


    I feel strongly about giving Spirit Surge an alternate effect depending on if the Wyvern is alive or not because I too strongly disagree about reducing the recast of Call Wyvern to 10 minutes. I think it would obviate the need for all of the buffs Wyverns received to survivability, but I think DRG need a 'second chance' ability which would consume our SP1 to bring back our wyvern. The secondary effect of it would be to make the Wyvern invincible for 60seconds like Rouse Wyvern, our original SP2 did.

    When the Wyvern is alive, Spirit Surge adds our Wyvern's strength to our own and increases our Attack, Defense, Haste, Max HP, and STR, while buffing our Jumps.

    When the Wyvern is KO'd, Spirit Surge adds our strength to the Wyvern, calling it back to our side, increases its HP/STR/Attack/Accuracy/Haste/Breath Potency/powerful resistance against enfeebling, and gives it a total of -90% damage taken for 60 seconds.

    Would be so balanced because Spirit Surge would 1) have a use without a wyvern, 2) be a 'second chance' button to call our wyvern, and 3) allow us to make our wyvern extremely durable for 60 seconds for content where we absolutely need our wyvern to stay alive e.g. if a boss is near death and we need healing breaths, or if the boss is using AoE Death or AoE doom which is extremely hard to remove on Wyverns since Spirit Link is a long recast.
    (0)
    Last edited by Ophannus; 08-02-2015 at 02:51 AM.

  5. #15
    Player Calatilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    271
    Character
    Calatilla
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    DRK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Grekumah View Post
    - Jump and Call Wyvern
    We currently have no plans to make adjustments in this direction as it'll move away from the concept of dragoons being strong while they maintain their wyvern.
    BST is strong while they have a pet out and they're able to heal their pets with a low recast job ability and also have 2 abilities on seperate timers to call a pet if their current one dies so they pretty much have a pet out full time. SMN can recast avatars indefinatly and PUP has the option of calling a new weaker pet if their current one dies, heal to full and dismiss to reset deploy timer.

    So why is it DRG has to deal with a 20min recast timer on their pet when they have none of the above options that other pet jobs have.
    (4)

  6. #16
    Player Catmato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    605
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophannus View Post
    Would be so balanced because Spirit Surge would 1) have a use without a wyvern, 2) be a 'second chance' button to call our wyvern, and 3) allow us to make our wyvern extremely durable for 60 seconds for content where we absolutely need our wyvern to stay alive e.g. if a boss is near death and we need healing breaths, or if the boss is using AoE Death or AoE doom which is extremely hard to remove on Wyverns since Spirit Link is a long recast.
    I think this a great idea, especially the bolded part.
    (0)

  7. #17
    Player
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    1,401
    Quote Originally Posted by Calatilla View Post
    BST is strong while they have a pet out and they're able to heal their pets with a low recast job ability and also have 2 abilities on seperate timers to call a pet if their current one dies so they pretty much have a pet out full time. SMN can recast avatars indefinatly and PUP has the option of calling a new weaker pet if their current one dies, heal to full and dismiss to reset deploy timer.

    So why is it DRG has to deal with a 20min recast timer on their pet when they have none of the above options that other pet jobs have.
    Playing devil's advocate here, but the answer is because DRG's DPS is much, much higher than either SMN or BST without a pet. BST's melee is subpar and they have literally no abilities that enhance their own damage. SMN is absolutely worthless without a pet, they have no spells other than summons. DRG wields the second highest base DMG weapon in the game, has extremely good gear, has Jumps which, even when nerfed without a Wyvern being alive, are still a DPS gain, and Stardiver is pretty damn good.

    Problem is when DRG's wyvern is alive, we are >SO< good, but if we die from a strong attack, no matter how much HP or durability the Wyvern has, it will die as soon as we do, thus its fragility is based on our fragility. They tried to re-mediate this by increasing the Dragoon's HP/Parry/Evasion a few years ago, but while this helped marginally for moderate content, end game bosses will still instantly kill a Dragoon in a single TP move if not stunned, we can still die instantly to Death or receive a Doom effect that we cannot remove in time and thus our DPS is totally garbage for up to 20 minutes, while other DPS jobs can just be raised and be back at full strength in 3-5minutes.
    (0)
    Last edited by Ophannus; 08-06-2015 at 01:11 PM.

  8. #18
    Player Helldemon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    133
    Character
    Helldemon
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophannus View Post
    Playing devil's advocate here, but the answer is because DRG's DPS is much, much higher than either SMN or BST without a pet. BST's melee is subpar and they have literally no abilities that enhance their own damage. SMN is absolutely worthless without a pet, they have no spells other than summons. DRG wields the second highest base DMG weapon in the game, has extremely good gear, has Jumps which, even when nerfed without a Wyvern being alive, are still a DPS gain, and Stardiver is pretty damn good.

    Problem is when DRG's wyvern is alive, we are >SO< good, but if we die from a strong attack, no matter how much HP or durability the Wyvern has, it will die as soon as we do, thus its fragility is based on our fragility. They tried to re-mediate this by increasing the Dragoon's HP/Parry/Evasion a few years ago, but while this helped marginally for moderate content, end game bosses will still instantly kill a Dragoon in a single TP move if not stunned, we can still die instantly to Death or receive a Doom effect that we cannot remove in time and thus our DPS is totally garbage for up to 20 minutes, while other DPS jobs can just be raised and be back at full strength in 3-5minutes.
    Bst has a couple things going for them as a DD w/o a pet, stronger ws then ours, 5 times the acc we have provided they get enough to cap. Jumps w/o wyvern are meh. Plenty of times the wait from using the JA prevented me from being able to self SC when I would have otherwise if I had not jumped and that was with wyvern out. I almost never use them w/o a wyvern unless I'm weakened/trying to not get hit with AoE. Drg survivability needs to be boosted quite a bit if they won't reduce the timer because even with our wyvern we are not any better then other jobs at full strength and none of those jobs become completely useless for nearly an entire event just because they die once. It's bad enough plenty of jobs have a single JP that is better then all ten of drg's combined. Our last JP could have been good if it had been per wyvern lvl boosted but instead it was only one level of boost. 40 atk/def is nothing these days. Maybe if they had added 2 acc to that per lvl, it could have been a great jp. They didn't though and it's pretty terrible but sadly it's the 2nd one I'm working on because our jp selection is just that bad.

    Wyvern durability would not need to be nerfed if we got a ten minute timer, 5-7 minutes is still quite crippling in a timed event like SR or Vagary. If they want to get us a 5 min timer then ya I would agree on taking it back to what it was but I would be happy to have a compromise, ten minutes vs five and keeping durability.

    If SE insist on not changing our call wyvern timer or boosting our ability to survive then the benefits we get from having our wyvern need to be largely boosted. That 20% atk/def boost needs to be 40% the 10% haste needs to be 20% we also need 10% acc boost from that as well. Maybe a 10% MDB/MEVA boost too. No other job can be crippled even remotely as bad as drg w/o our pet so the buffs need to match this.

    I wonder if we should be making a new thread on this since this thread was already responded to and basically refused. Do they even bother to keep paying attention to it?
    (0)
    Last edited by Helldemon; 11-22-2015 at 04:05 AM.

  9. #19
    Player Syrrus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    1
    Character
    Syrrus
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 99

    Spirit Surge, too much cost.

    As a capped Job Points DRG, my wyvern gives me approximately 250 Attack and Defense as well as 15% Double Attack. However, when activating Spirit Surge I lose all of my JP related bonuses and Wyvern "EXP" benefits.

    I can't think of another job that has such a penalty to using a One-Hour ability.

    Losing our wyvern as an activation cost to Spirit Surge is too much. Perhaps losing the wyvern after Spirit Surge ends or resetting Call Wyvern similar to the jump timers would help mitigate this extreme penalty.
    (0)

  10. #20
    Player Martel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    249
    Character
    Martel
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    I'd say just leave all Wyvern present and Wyvern exp based bonuses active while Spirit Surge is up. After all, he's with us... in spirit. <,<;
    (0)

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