Job Adjustments in March 2015 Update

[FrankReynolds]

Because not many people play PUP?

...and why do you suppose that is?

This is, again, a fault of the community. The support DNC provides is very useful, with steps being very potent, etc. Simply because the community cannot properly gauge this (it is not as obvious as bard songs) and debuffs are a lot harder to "feel" does not mean they are not effective.

They aren't effective though. The situations where they aren't beaten by another jobs debuffs or outright damage are rare enough to make it more sensible to just bring another job. It takes a fair amount of time to apply those steps and they come at the cost of delay and lowering the DNCs damage output not to mention that most things die before you see any significant benefit. Sambas are almost never needed in party content where you will have capped haste from spells and songs anyways and curing means not using saber dance, which is a huge hit to damgage. It's been thoroughly explained on these forums. Go look it up.

I mean, if I'm wrong, feel free to say so.

You are. Smarter people than you and me have mathed this out. THF and DNC damage potential is not far ahead if at all. Nerfing them will do nothing for anyone. DRK, BST, WAR etc. will still have the same deficiencies. They won't go away just because thief sucks again.

[Crevox]

You are. Smarter people than you and me have mathed this out. THF and DNC damage potential is not far ahead if at all. Nerfing them will do nothing for anyone. DRK, BST, WAR etc. will still have the same deficiencies. They won't go away just because thief sucks again.

Can you provide a link to this? You've mentioned it a lot, I'd like to finally see it. I think this thread is most relevant for it, anyways.

...and why do you suppose that is?

Due to false interpretations of job balance, community hating on a job, and difficulty of the job? Yes, it was weaker, but it just got buffed quite a bit, and more soon.

[Ulth]

Because it's OP? If there's an obvious always best option, of course everyone is going to use it. But if the other WS are as bad as you say, then they need help.

Okay so daggers have a much lower base damage than say a great katana. A lot of people use this as a reason to say that jobs like thf and dnc shouldn't be allowed to deal as much damage as jobs like sam. But the dps of daggers and great katanas are actually pretty close. That is because daggers have a much lower delay. Only weaponskills don't take into account delay and always take the same amount of time. Because of this low damage weapons need some sort of boost to their weapon skills. That's why weapons with lower delay have more multi hit ws. But because the ftp of weapon skills kept going up multi hits soon fell to the wayside, but SE brought them back by increasing the ftp of them and having them apply to all hits. Only evis didn't get as much as a boost as say cdc. At first look they seem pretty even cdc is less hits so it gets a higher ftp and wsc than evis, but the reason a sword ws has less hits than a dagger one is because swords have a higher delay and a higher base damage, so really the ftp of evis should be higher like cdc's is.

Another thing that changed a lot of how thf works is it used to deal with it's super low base damage by added extra damage from the dex bonus from sneak attack. Only now that everything has such a high ftp and it gets added after the ftp the dex bonus is pretty much nothing. This needs adjusted to be added before ftp much like how ftp is applied to all hits in a multi hit ws. If they did that then rudra's wouldn't need to have such a crazy ftp for thf to do normal damage. I don't know who actually used thf for stuff like delve before the one hand update, but thfs damage then was not okay at all.

Another problem thf was having preupdate rudra was the way ftp scaled at 2000 and 3000 tp. because everything now is done with capped delay you get 3000 tp waiting for timers. This is why for the longest time thfs we asking for faster timers on sa/ta. ftp at 2000 had never been 2x the amount of ftp 1000, let alone above it. That is what was nice about rudra's after the update is how well ftp scaled at higher tps. Having tp work like that fixed the issue with timers.

The amount of damage a stacked rudra's does at 2000tp right now is not OP. It takes a good deal of work, and is dependent on 2 1 minute timers. For one thing the average is greatly exaggerated It's not 30k-45k or what ever people are saying it is. It's actually something like 18k-22k and in that 30 seconds between those any sam could do 3 8k fudos. I'm actually fine with unstacked rudra's taking a hit, but not stacked ones. That's why if they nerf rudra's they need to give some bonus to sneak attack, trick attack, and climatic flourish like having their added damage added in before the ftp.

[Celoria]

Or maybe you are playing with trash sams and apparently only go in super buffed? Those numbers are far from typical of typical thfs. 20k unstacked on non piercing weak stuff is ridiculously high even assuming really good sets and capped pdif and 3000 tp. And congratulations in the time it took you to get that a good sam just did a 5 step skillchain for more. Which brings me to a point I've made before... the ws wasn't meant to be used with capped pdif as the jobs that get it aren't ones that do that easily. The only time/reason thfs are topping out like that are because of ridiculous overbuffing that completely nullifies the inherent greater attack most 2hders get.

A better solution would be to make those things matter again. Maybe address how OP Geo is. And again if I got the right buffs/debuffs I can hit even higher dmgs with at least 4 different ws of the top of my head. 1 or 2 of which I believe I can self lvl 3 without having to /sam.

Yes that is why everything dies so much faster now with thf in pt, because shit sams and not good thfs, or because thf messed up the poor wittle sam's sc. Face it, 2 thf sc rudra in delve and a nm dies, vs a sam having to ws multiple times. 35k rudra + 35k rudra = 35k+ darkness, that will smoke a few 8-14k fudo (assuming sam can hit 14k) and getting their 20-25k double light. You say bad sam's, that is bullshit. Any half witted thf with optimal gear will smoke sam's even lolkoga. Delve clear times have been reduced since thf, not increased. Like I said, you play with shit thfs.

Also that stupid shit about a sam can 5 step in the time it takes thf to get 1 20k ws is stupid too, maybe you need to learn to gear thf too. Thf can self sc darkness as /war just tp gear alone in the gear we have now with buffs, but all jobs get buffed anyway. As for all this "over buffing" I get stuck with brds that have to cater to lolsam DD and dealing with the idiot brd that can't figure out how to separate songs, so I end up way over cap on -delay, which does 0 good. So all this "over buffing" you think thf is getting is garbage most thf actually lose out on dmg output because pt's cater to sam and don't know thf only needs haste II and 1 March song to cap -delay. Hell I solo darkness on thf with trust song and koru haste II. You are possibly a shit thf, and know shit thfs if you think that sam is even remotely close to sam in parse.

Another problem thf was having preupdate rudra was the way ftp scaled at 2000 and 3000 tp. because everything now is done with capped delay you get 3000 tp waiting for timers. This is why for the longest time thfs we asking for faster timers on sa/ta. ftp at 2000 had never been 2x the amount of ftp 1000, let alone above it. That is what was nice about rudra's after the update is how well ftp scaled at higher tps. Having tp work like that fixed the issue with timers.

The amount of damage a stacked rudra's does at 2000tp right now is not OP. It takes a good deal of work, and is dependent on 2 1 minute timers. For one thing the average is greatly exaggerated It's not 30k-45k or what ever people are saying it is. It's actually something like 18k-22k and in that 30 seconds between those any sam could do 3 8k fudos. I'm actually fine with unstacked rudra's taking a hit, but not stacked ones. That's why if they nerf rudra's they need to give some bonus to sneak attack, trick attack, and climatic flourish like having their added damage added in before the ftp.

If your thf are holding tp til 300% they are seriously gimping their own dmg, also they should be alternating the SA and TA for max dmg, starting with TA to keep hate on someone else so they can use SA a few times before pulling hate and needing bully to SA again. Also you seem to think thf can't hit 8k rudra unstacked, those 30k-45k rudras are NOT exaggerated. The avg is yes. But again with 2 thf in pt you only need one SA and TA each before most nm's are dead. With the exception of megabosses. Sam with 3 8k fudo, vs thf with 2 20k ruda and a 10k rudra... and that is WAY low end dmg for thf. Then timers down on SA and thf still pulls 10k+ rudra's fast enough to self sc.

[Rubeus]

as regards the 2-handed update (in addition to the other update that boosted 1-handed weapon accuracy to 99% and normalized TP): Originally Posted by Camate:
As the one-handed weapon adjustments just took place very recently, we would like to monitor the balance between them and two-handed weapons for a while before we look into two-handed weapon adjustments.

Furthermore, as mentioned during Freshly Picked Vana’diel 14, the team would first like to prioritize pet and elemental magic adjustments."

BGwiki's rudra's storm entries provide a nice ftp breakdown and testings, but as far as DD parsing goes, I'll have to look that up some other time. I can tell you from experience in delve with my LS that BST can easily outperform THF by using cloudsplitter and chaining with their pets. But as far as non-anecdotal evidence, I'll have to figure out what keywords that falls under.

[machini]

Oh, and I'd like to also add that DNC isn't actually in demand on my server. People go for THF. Even with Rudra's being "OP", very few people actually want anything but THF.

The problem is the userbase's inability to understand anything with complexity, anything that's not fudofudofudofudo or MNK MNK MNK.

[dasva]

You're right, and by your logic, they might not even nerf Rudra's. They are "considering" those dagger changes just like they are "considering" SAM changes.



Source? Also, they did buff 2 handed weapons, considering the huge damage augments they get from skirmish.

Um no you are missing the point entirely. There is a world of difference between saying you are going to do xyz and we are considering possibly making doing something. If you can't discern the difference between a definite we are doing this and a we are thinking about doing something I don't know what to tell you.

And source? It was quoted the page before you quoted me or just do a dev note search. And everyone got huge dmg augments from skirmish.

[Crevox]

Um no you are missing the point entirely. There is a world of difference between saying you are going to do xyz and we are considering possibly making doing something. If you can't discern the difference between a definite we are doing this and a we are thinking about doing something I don't know what to tell you.

They didn't say they were going to do it though, they said they were "considering" it. They are "currently looking at adjusting" it in the way they stated, and they have "have begun to consider these balance adjustments" for THF and SAM. They simply did not tell us what they were "considering" for SAM. There was no definites, and this is proven further at the end of they post when they said "we wished to communicate these details to you in advance as we continue to thoroughly discuss this matter" because they are still discussing it.

None of this is set in stone. They are still talking about it, however, they were kind enough to let us know ahead of time what they were planning because they are seeking feedback on it.

And based on the quote:

As the one-handed weapon adjustments just took place very recently, we would like to monitor the balance between them and two-handed weapons for a while before we look into two-handed weapon adjustments.

They did not state they were going to make two-handed weapon adjustments. They said they were going to monitor the balance, and then "look into" adjustments. This does not mean there will be adjustments; there may be, there may not be. They are going to look into it. It could happen, or it could not. It depends on how they feel about the balance after "monitoring" it.

This is why I ask for quotes and sources, because people misinterpret.

And everyone got huge dmg augments from skirmish.

Except that two handers roll higher damage values than one handers. This is a especially noticeable buff for Monks and Puppetmasters, who got the two handed damage roll variant on their fists (+36 DMG).

[dasva]

Yes that is why everything dies so much faster now with thf in pt, because shit sams and not good thfs, or because thf messed up the poor wittle sam's sc. Face it, 2 thf sc rudra in delve and a nm dies, vs a sam having to ws multiple times. 35k rudra + 35k rudra = 35k+ darkness, that will smoke a few 8-14k fudo (assuming sam can hit 14k) and getting their 20-25k double light. You say bad sam's, that is bullshit. Any half witted thf with optimal gear will smoke sam's even lolkoga. Delve clear times have been reduced since thf, not increased. Like I said, you play with shit thfs.

Also that stupid shit about a sam can 5 step in the time it takes thf to get 1 20k ws is stupid too, maybe you need to learn to gear thf too. Thf can self sc darkness as /war just tp gear alone in the gear we have now with buffs, but all jobs get buffed anyway. As for all this "over buffing" I get stuck with brds that have to cater to lolsam DD and dealing with the idiot brd that can't figure out how to separate songs, so I end up way over cap on -delay, which does 0 good. So all this "over buffing" you think thf is getting is garbage most thf actually lose out on dmg output because pt's cater to sam and don't know thf only needs haste II and 1 March song to cap -delay. Hell I solo darkness on thf with trust song and koru haste II. You are possibly a shit thf, and know shit thfs if you think that sam is even remotely close to sam in parse.

Now you are just making shit up. First off skill chain multipliers are way higher than that. Sounds like you play with shit sams that just fudo all the things.

Except you were saying 20k unstacked which means saving tp. There is no way you are getting to 3000 tp in the 10 seconds required to self skillchain. Also what the heck does "tp gear alone in the gear we have now with buffs" even mean? But keep on making shit up and taking what I say out of context. Like how I specifically talked about att with overbuffing and you now go on about -delay. You are still clearly getting overbuffed on the attack end to get those dmgs you claim (though I'm starting to think more and more you are making stuff up). Those dmgs are clearly the result of capped pdif and to do that on thf on mobs with 1500-2k def that means huge amounts of attack and/or huge amounts of -def which like I said completely kills the built in benefits of most 2hdd DDs. Also I find it hilarious that you call me a shit thf when you clearly puts more than enough dual wield to cap -delay when getting properly haste and can't understand the simple concept of swapping out some dual wield gear when you get more haste.

Also 35k ws? Get on my level bro

[Alhanelem]

They didn't say they were going to do it though, they said they were "considering" it. They are "currently looking at adjusting"

This is usually Cryptic SE PR Speak for "we're going to do this." They wouldn't have made post if they weren't actually planning to change something.