Job Adjustments in March 2015 Update

[Kylos]

SE should boost WAR DRK and DRG (without Mythics) to be closer to Samurai, that way the mighty SAM/Rudras combination won't be as necessary or apparent. Having a balance between DD jobs would make it more about the skill and equipment possessed by the player, not the job itself.

I already made a post about this and suggested ways that WAR DRK and DRG could be updated. I shouldn't be ridiculed because I want to join a party on DRK. I have THF and I've been using it as my main DD over my Ragnarok DRK for months now.The job I always considered my farming job is also my main DD. I can't see any content where someone would prefer my Relic DRK over my THF with no RME weapon.

Edit: We have Rune Fencer using Great Sword, but Scythe on Dark Knight hasn't been relevant in high-end content for many years. Scythe should be considered a weapon DRK can use just as efficiently as Great Sword even if you don't have access to a Liberator.

[Tidis]

The biggest problem for me is that the game hasn't been properly balanced in respect to DDs since the 75 days, outside of specifics like a RNG strat or resistances like Wokpet to piercing, when people are doing events it should be a case of SAM can I have it or as I sometimes see THF SC can I have it? As a result, THF and SAM are probably overdue a nerf, SAM needing a bigger one than THF but both not particularly huge, at the same time they should be boosting GA, GS and Polearm WS to benefit WAR, DRK and DRG who are certainly the DD jobs lagging behind, Mythic DRGs being the exception. Wouldn't hurt to boost Scythe either, just to give DRK a bit of variety.

[dasva]

There is a JA that fully levels the wyvern, it's called Spirit Link with 5/5 Empathy merits.

Doesn't that take multiple activations to fully lvl it up though? Like it takes 200 xp per lvl for a max of 5 lvls and Empathy says 200 xp per merit level past the first so max 800. Though I suppose a 1.5 minute wait isn't too bad.

[Watts101]

Ok so the original post stated quite specifically that the reason for any WS adjustments is because adding ardor's SC damage increase to the current SC damage of SA/TA dagger WS's would put it higher than the the Dev team wants to see, this is because ardor is based around the number of hits before WS activation. Thief triple attacks a lot, new gear has them Tripling even more frequently! An adjustment to reduce the SC damage possible with ardor in affect makes sense. I don't think anyone wants to be able to do 99k Skillchains on 130+ content it'll be over before it began. My tidbit take it for what its worth:

Dagger/Weaponskill Suggestion: adjust Rudra's storm's 2000-3000 tp mod down about 3.0 that would put it at approx. 12.0 ftp mod at 2000 and 16.5 ftp mod; those are still very high mods for the WS. which gives it similar mods, but still superior, to sword FTP mods. I.E. Savage Blade.

Perform similar tweaking of the other dagger weaponskills if necessary. I don't want to see DNC BRD or THF suddenly disappear from being invited to content. Dagger needed the power boost for a long time. If it needs balancing, keep the balancing of the weapon to a minimum. The same goes for SAM and Fudo. Adjust the WS slightly, but leave it wholly intact. The player base enjoys the power of these weaponskills!

After making these minor adjustments, Turn your attention to other weaponskills. Elemental Weaponskills: should be approached as a source of alternative damage for the weapon class, this could help various DD jobs to be able to perform effectively even when they are fighting a monster that is strong to their primary damage type. for example: Raiden thrust on Polearm could be adjusted for higher thunder based elemental Damage. Or you could always introduce new elemental Weaponskills for all the weapons, with modifiers that are consistent and effective replacement options to their physical counterparts; That would be fun.

Back on Topic, when reducing the power of a weapon keep the reduction to a minimum. while increasing the damage of other weapons to close the gap, be a bit more generous. If the adjustment over shoots the intended Balance reduce the power but conservatively until you achieve balance on all Weapons. This way the job power hierarchy is centered on the Abilities of the player and their ability to manipulate a Jobs abilities and traits, Not simply on the power of ANY single weaponskill. Everyone should be able to play and feel powerful, but for the large number of endgame players, which XI has, player skill and experience should allow ANY job to shine and out compete another job if used properly. A DRG used properly should be able to outperform a SAM and vice versa, or a DNC should be able to make a DRK cry, but it shouldn't be easy, it should rely on using the Job and its abilities effectively, I feel this form of game play is intended in current battle system but I don't feel like it's achieved. Players only use whatever Job currently has the easiest access to high levels of power, but everyone has their favorite job that they want to take and can't, because it doesn't have easy access to high levels of power comparable to the other powered up jobs.

Ardor Suggestion: If Possible; consider capping the SC potency for single handed weapons a bit lower than 2 handed weapons, I don't know if the game mechanics allow for such a differentiation. In theory, this would allow for single hander's to get full effect of the spell for their weapon class; while allowing 2- handed weapons to be able to spike their SC damage a bit higher since the amount of time to achieve full potency is also higher.

Ardor should be only one step in closing the gap between job class damage. RDM is already a very busy Job, and shouldn't be responsible for closing the damage gap of ALL job classes if the spell isn't area of affect and every DD job wants the spell thats one more buff that RDM is having to single target on multiple DD's that ALL want to perform at the highest level possible. At the least, please make Ardor Accession-able with a 5-10 minute duration.

ok, thats my tidbit. I'm sure there are holes in the thought process but I do strongly believe that no job should be on top by a large margin, all DD roles should be competing for the top DD role because of player skill, teamwork, gear, and experience. Adjustments should be made with evening out the playing field and letting players determine if they can be the top DD, regardless of Job.

[Smokenttp]

Ok so the original post stated quite specifically that the reason for any WS adjustments is because adding ardor's SC damage increase to the current SC damage of SA/TA dagger WS's would put it higher than the the Dev team wants to see, this is because ardor is based around the number of hits before WS activation. Thief triple attacks a lot, new gear has them Tripling even more frequently! An adjustment to reduce the SC damage possible with ardor in affect makes sense. I don't think anyone wants to be able to do 99k Skillchains on 130+ content it'll be over before it began. My tidbit take it for what its worth:

Dagger/Weaponskill Suggestion: adjust Rudra's storm's 2000-3000 tp mod down about 3.0 that would put it at approx. 12.0 ftp mod at 2000 and 16.5 ftp mod; those are still very high mods for the WS. which gives it similar mods, but still superior, to sword FTP mods. I.E. Savage Blade.

Perform similar tweaking of the other dagger weaponskills if necessary. I don't want to see DNC BRD or THF suddenly disappear from being invited to content. Dagger needed the power boost for a long time. If it needs balancing, keep the balancing of the weapon to a minimum. The same goes for SAM and Fudo. Adjust the WS slightly, but leave it wholly intact. The player base enjoys the power of these weaponskills!

After making these minor adjustments, Turn your attention to other weaponskills. Elemental Weaponskills: should be approached as a source of alternative damage for the weapon class, this could help various DD jobs to be able to perform effectively even when they are fighting a monster that is strong to their primary damage type. for example: Raiden thrust on Polearm could be adjusted for higher thunder based elemental Damage. Or you could always introduce new elemental Weaponskills for all the weapons, with modifiers that are consistent and effective replacement options to their physical counterparts; That would be fun.

Back on Topic, when reducing the power of a weapon keep the reduction to a minimum. while increasing the damage of other weapons to close the gap, be a bit more generous. If the adjustment over shoots the intended Balance reduce the power but conservatively until you achieve balance on all Weapons. This way the job power hierarchy is centered on the Abilities of the player and their ability to manipulate a Jobs abilities and traits, Not simply on the power of ANY single weaponskill. Everyone should be able to play and feel powerful, but for the large number of endgame players, which XI has, player skill and experience should allow ANY job to shine and out compete another job if used properly. A DRG used properly should be able to outperform a SAM and vice versa, or a DNC should be able to make a DRK cry, but it shouldn't be easy, it should rely on using the Job and its abilities effectively, I feel this form of game play is intended in current battle system but I don't feel like it's achieved. Players only use whatever Job currently has the easiest access to high levels of power, but everyone has their favorite job that they want to take and can't, because it doesn't have easy access to high levels of power comparable to the other powered up jobs.

Ardor Suggestion: If Possible; consider capping the SC potency for single handed weapons a bit lower than 2 handed weapons, I don't know if the game mechanics allow for such a differentiation. In theory, this would allow for single hander's to get full effect of the spell for their weapon class; while allowing 2- handed weapons to be able to spike their SC damage a bit higher since the amount of time to achieve full potency is also higher.

Ardor should be only one step in closing the gap between job class damage. RDM is already a very busy Job, and shouldn't be responsible for closing the damage gap of ALL job classes if the spell isn't area of affect and every DD job wants the spell thats one more buff that RDM is having to single target on multiple DD's that ALL want to perform at the highest level possible. At the least, please make Ardor Accession-able with a 5-10 minute duration.

ok, thats my tidbit. I'm sure there are holes in the thought process but I do strongly believe that no job should be on top by a large margin, all DD roles should be competing for the top DD role because of player skill, teamwork, gear, and experience. Adjustments should be made with evening out the playing field and letting players determine if they can be the top DD, regardless of Job.

kinda agree with this if you are going to nerf it keep it in an aceptable amount and dont forget about the other jobs who have acess to the same tools as well as they will also take a hit from it only one small addenum tough no job should be responsible for cosing gaps in damage for other jobs (not espcifically rdm altough i said previously it might be a good idea after thinkig about it troughly seemed a pretty bad way to handle things) , this gap should not exist in the first place you already have an diverse damage system physical divided in 3 categories magical in 9 (neutral elemental?) so thats the only thing that should be keeping jobs apart is the resistence to certain types of damage , in wich every job should have (already have but its cureently improperly balanced) an way to counter it being in form of equiping another weapon or just plain using elemental ws. the function of support jobs is not closing gaps but rather boosting overall damage.

[Ramzi]

I'd also like to point out that most RPG type games give dagger a crit multiplier to make up for how weak it is. Look at Dark Souls 2. Dagger is weak, but swings fast, doesn't use a ton of stamina, and when you do a backstab with it (TA/SA equivalent) it does insane damage. But positioning is everything here, and SATA is on a timer, to keep it balanced. So it's not like Dagger isn't working as intended, they just buffed it a bit too much. Also what about situations where a RDM isn't in the party? THF will be nerfed for no reason. Maybe changing the properties of Ardor itself would be a better solution than messing with the WS because of it.

[Dale]

Your reply and Machini's earlier reply to me, are why this forum has threads with 5000 thread views and only 100 thread replies. Players don't want to express opinions or relate their empirical experiences, or just engage in friendly casual chat on this forum because of the hostility and bitterness that is unleashed on perfectly innocent posts. I know many people who've quit this forum because of this.

And it is not BS either, at all. My WAR is powerful, but will do ws that are lower than my Thf Rudras, even though I have zero jobpoints and average gear on my Thf. Obviously there is some overlap and variation, but in terms of just hitting the ws button without any tactical modifiers, I see Rudras doing over 10k a lot and Upheaval doing 8k a lot.

Again, like I originally said, it is only my opinion, I feel it is strange to see this happen ingame, even allowing for videogame fantasy etc. it seems odd to me. And it goes against my decades of real-life RPG on actual battlefields with actual armor and actual weapons, when my group goes to the real-world D&D battle meets. They would laugh me out of town if I said I was going to vanquish a heavily armored Paladin using my pen-knife.

Just my opinion, and no need for the hostility.

I agree. It's probably the reason this forum has a lack or activity when compared to other game forums I've participated in.

You made a good point. Rudra's Storm offers high-end damage with little investment. Other jobs have to work much harder to accomplish similar numbers.

[Ulth]

Most videogames are unrealistic and tend to give small weapons extra power to make players happy, and you won't see that in realistic / historical / purist RPG etc. Its something the mainstream has adopted to make it so people can play their favourite class and favourite weapons, and still have a kill rate that rivals heavier weapons and more proficient battlefield jobs.

My problem with Rudras is not really about backstab / critical / laceration damage / SATA etc. it is about how I take my THF out in average 119 gear, and just roll out Rudras without food, without sneak attack, without any kind of tactical play, I just hit the WS while facing the mob and it does a one-hit attack for like 17000 damage. Then I go out on my WAR, which has far better gear than my THF, my WAR has 180 jobpoints, HQ food, berserk/warcry up, stacked DA and VIT etc. and see the Upheaval four-hit attack clock at 14500 damage.

And my issue with it is that it makes the game feel broken, when a one-hit attack from a low quality knife does more than a four-hit attack from a greataxe, when I have way better gear on WAR and skirmish gaxe with the dmg+34 aug, versus my absolute basic Thf gear. And again, this is not backstab or tactics or laceration or SA, it is just me facing the mob and hitting it with rudras and it > my WAR gaxe ws.

Very interesting point I would love to hear your opinions on the merits of apples versus oranges as well. Sounds like for these examples of weaponskill damages you used both at 3000 tp. Which really isn't a good measure of the two since from what I can tell the ftp of upheaval doesn't transfer across all 4 hits. So you effectively compared upheaval at it's worst efficiency to to rudra's at it's second best efficiency. What's even more funny is you are probably also using a target that you already have attack capped on making all the war atk boost abilities and HQ food a null point.

As for equipment and job points, I have at least 210 job points of thf, and the relic dagger. Want to know what that counts for? A whole lot of nothing. The only good job point category on thf is larceny duration, and that is so situational I can only think of using it for 10 extra seconds of mighty strikes on Brash Gramk-Droog. And my mandau currently sits in my mog house gathering dust because I use the second best dagger for unstacked rudra's, the shark dagger, probably the same one you use.

[FrankReynolds]

My problem with Rudras is not really about backstab / critical / laceration damage / SATA etc. it is about how I take my THF out in average 119 gear, and just roll out Rudras without food, without sneak attack, without any kind of tactical play, I just hit the WS while facing the mob and it does a one-hit attack for like 17000 damage. Then I go out on my WAR, which has far better gear than my THF, my WAR has 180 jobpoints, HQ food, berserk/warcry up, stacked DA and VIT etc. and see the Upheaval four-hit attack clock at 14500 damage.

And my issue with it is that it makes the game feel broken, when a one-hit attack from a low quality knife does more than a four-hit attack from a greataxe, when I have way better gear on WAR and skirmish gaxe with the dmg+34 aug, versus my absolute basic Thf gear. And again, this is not backstab or tactics or laceration or SA, it is just me facing the mob and hitting it with rudras and it > my WAR gaxe ws.

Since you're going to straight up lie, I'll go ahead and do that too. I don't think it's fair that I have to save up 3000 tp and then stack SA/TA just to hit a 20k+ rudras's, while meanwhile my war can just auto-attack and crit for 3-4k nonstop without even doing a weapon skill. It makes the game feel broken when my wars normal white damage is higher than my thfs weapon skills. They need to nerf war.

[Stompa]

I agree. It's probably the reason this forum has a lack or activity when compared to other game forums I've participated in.

You made a good point. Rudra's Storm offers high-end damage with little investment. Other jobs have to work much harder to accomplish similar numbers.

I'm glad other people have noticed similar things that I noticed, thankyou for this.