Rune Fencer & Ninja ~ Small Idea to Make it a Real Tank

[Ulth]

That info about charm being water was added randomly on January 7th, 2014.

http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Charm



No, Repose is light. He was just giving some supporting information to back it up why it makes sense.

Yeah, and I was giving information to refute his. Black mages' attribute for spells is INT, but that doesn't make all their elemental spells ice based. Also I like the information in the link

"The exact impact of Light Staff/Iridal Staff or Apollo's Staff/Chatoyant Staff on Charm is unknown, but they are believed to increase Charm rate by 10% and 15% respectively."

Words like unknown and believed make a strong case for charm being light based.

Charm is definitely light-based.

A lot of those CHR items are named after things associated with light (positivity); Angels, Heavens, Moon, Hope.

Light staff, used by BSTs to charm mobs, is CHARM+10% while equipped during charm /ja.

Lightsday was always the best day to try and charm higher level pets.

Darksday was always notorious among BSTs, for being the day you would mis-charm almost continuously and die. Many BST would actually stop exping and simply just log-out on Darksday, and come back later on another day when the pets didn't try to rip your head off lol.

On a logic level, Charm = Love, you make the monster or person love you so it becomes your pet.

Love = Light, and Hate = Dark.

I'm not trying to dispute that CHR is associated with light. And as I pointed out from the bgwiki people don't actually have proof that light staff does anything for charm. For all you know trying to charm on darksday and failing is just confirmation biases.

As for your logic, charm does not equal love. If you are charmed by something you don't actually love it, you just think you love it. Typically this is done by things that are youthful and beautiful, and personally I associate youth and beauty with water. The fountain of youth for example.

As for more logic as to why charm might be water based a lot of the mobs that use charm moves are water monsters like Lamiae, Poroggo, and Orobon.

With items there are two that give resist charm and have elemental resistance on them. One is the Wuji Ring, it gives resist charm and resist light, however it also gives resist dark and resist sleep. By my best guess the resisting light and dark has more to do with resisting sleep. The other item is M. No.17's Locket which gives resist charm and resist water.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Le...Lost_and_Found

The RUN AF quest also show the break down of status Ailment to answer the question.

This is actually interesting. I have a suspicion that the table was just filled in based on what people most commonly think the element for charm is. It seems like a good way to determine what element charm actually is though. A person would just have to keep failing until he does ask about charm then answer to see if they get it right.

[Alhanelem]

For all you know trying to charm on darksday and failing is just confirmation biases.

I'm sure it's been properly tested enough times for it not to be 'confirmation bias.' that's not something BG has really been prone to. Information that isn't solidly proven tends to get removed, even if it's not necessarily wrong.

I have a suspicion that the table was just filled in based on what people most commonly think the element for charm is.

Why are you so quick to question everything, lol? If the information was wrong you wouldn't be able to pass the quiz using it.

Most status effects don't have it explicitly stated anywhere in the game what element they're associated with; this is something that players have figured out over the years. Mobs that resist a certain element also have higher resist status effects associated with a certain element.

[Byrth]

bgwiki notes that charm probably depends on magic accuracy (specifically, light magic accuracy). There are day/weather penalties for magic accuracy just as there are for damage, and they can be similarly forced with Obis.

[Stompa]

"The exact impact of Light Staff/Iridal Staff or Apollo's Staff/Chatoyant Staff on Charm is unknown, but they are believed to increase Charm rate by 10% and 15% respectively."

Words like unknown and believed make a strong case for charm being light based.

I'm not trying to dispute that CHR is associated with light. And as I pointed out from the bgwiki people don't actually have proof that light staff does anything for charm. For all you know trying to charm on darksday and failing is just confirmation biases.

As for your logic, charm does not equal love. If you are charmed by something you don't actually love it, you just think you love it. Typically this is done by things that are youthful and beautiful, and personally I associate youth and beauty with water. The fountain of youth for example.

As for more logic as to why charm might be water based a lot of the mobs that use charm moves are water monsters like Lamiae, Poroggo, and Orobon.

With items there are two that give resist charm and have elemental resistance on them. One is the Wuji Ring, it gives resist charm and resist light, however it also gives resist dark and resist sleep. By my best guess the resisting light and dark has more to do with resisting sleep. The other item is M. No.17's Locket which gives resist charm and resist water.

"Charm does not equal love."

When the CHARM job ability is used, a long chain of PINK LOVE HEARTS goes between you and the mob. Also it is simple logic, if the person/mob loves you they will follow you blindly as a pet and they will die for you. They wouldn't die for you if they only quite liked you a little bit.

I played BST main job from Summer 2004 to late 2006, when I changed to PUP. During those 2+ years when I played BST every single day, I totally noticed the difference when charming mobs on Darksday. My LS was all BST, until PUP arrived and many of us changed to PUP. All the BST on my LS reported the same thing about Darksday. Other BST who were not on my LS have said the same thing too.

When I didn't use my lightstaff, my charm failed way more often. I tried this while meleeing with CHR axes and trying to charm same time, it never had the same success rate as using lightstaff.

I used to arrive for LS events and I would often be Weakened and level 74 lol. My LS friends would say stuff like "didn't you used to be level 75?" and we would all laugh. Ot they would just simply say "Darksday?" And everyone knew what this meant, that I'd had multiple mis-charm deaths on Darksday.

I have no proof, only my extensive empirical evidence. I submit my scars and bruises and gruesome injuries that I sustained while charming pets for years on Darksday, as my evidence. I will also say that even now, ten years later, I can't look at the little black Darksday icon on the screen without flinching and turning pale.

Merrow are aquatic, and the merrow zone is an aqua zone. That is why this neck has water def. The resist charm on it is because that species use 'belly dance' charm. It is a specific item relating to a specific species and area.

[dasva]

Yeah, and I was giving information to refute his. Black mages' attribute for spells is INT, but that doesn't make all their elemental spells ice based. Also I like the information in the link

"The exact impact of Light Staff/Iridal Staff or Apollo's Staff/Chatoyant Staff on Charm is unknown, but they are believed to increase Charm rate by 10% and 15% respectively."

Words like unknown and believed make a strong case for charm being light based.

I'm not trying to dispute that CHR is associated with light. And as I pointed out from the bgwiki people don't actually have proof that light staff does anything for charm.
This is actually interesting. I have a suspicion that the table was just filled in based on what people most commonly think the element for charm is. It seems like a good way to determine what element charm actually is though. A person would just have to keep failing until he does ask about charm then answer to see if they get it right.

By the exact impact they mean how much does it increase. The fact that it does increase is highly documented even if you don't count the countless testimonials of bsts from back in the day but testing of exact rates not as much. Iirc over on allahkazam there was testing using gauge since that gives an accurate magic hit rate (though it is a range) which was used to determine a few things about macc of charm. On top of that any Run who tanks anything with charm can tell you what a difference Tenebrae pflug will make. The difference is stark enough where there is no way it's eyeballing error

[Rwolf]

I agree that RUN is a bit underrated on its actual durability. I've been trying to tank during events on it more so I can better speak to its actual strength. However I do feel it is still rough and needs some smoothing out.

Lack of Mitigating Physical Damage Gear Choices: It's hard for a RUN to max out PDT than it is for PLD to max PDT and MDT. Before Adoulin gear you could do that on Paladin. Even at 109 reforged artifact gear you could do that on PLD. RUN lacks the amount of PDT that PLD has access to. It takes some combination of perfect Skirmish gear augments, 119 drops, or items like Defending Ring to do so. While serious RUNs are going to be able to do this, it puts a distance for anyone trying to work their way up on RUN. They could use access to more options for tanking gear. Evasion works but isn't as effective as what it use to be when Ninja use to stockpile it because monsters have such huge amounts of Accuracy now.

Support Job Reliance for Survivability: While yes this game is about having correct support jobs for content, it should ultimately come down to further bolstering traits you want, not be your primary source. I had this issue with Summoner when it was only invited primarily to be a healer in parties because their main job abilities were more supplemental than the main reason you brought them along. There was a dev post awhile back stating their vision was for RUN to use /SAM and /NIN support jobs to mitigate damage. That's fine of it being another source of survivability but not the primary source. Sure we have Battuta and Swordplay, but I feel it doesn't fill the gap entirely on main job survivability. Meaning that we have to heavily rely on Utsusemi, Seigan/Third Eye, or Cocoon to effectively tank at all. The job needs some more native ability to mitigate physical damage and/or recover from it.

Buff Juggling and TP Gain: RUN has a very "Red Mage" style of tanking which I think is fine and I like the whole magic tank using magic to defend itself. However between recasting runes, using JA's for said runes, barspells, stoneskin, phalanx, crusade, spikes (if useful), refresh, regen and possibly whatever sub job defensive spells like Utsusemi and Cocoon. You're constantly in magic and job ability lock, making it really hard to TP and even more of a requirement to have a Ranger or Thief there to immediately assist. While yes you could have your support recast some of this stuff on you, PLD just doesn't have to juggle that many buffs. Not only that but Shield Mastery IV puts them around 60TP per shield proc. Which a PLD will see a lot more than RUN will Tactical Parry proc at 40TP.

This isn't counting +proc rate skills because PLD has more of those than RUN has too. I'd like to see Reprisal given to RUN and have it affect Parry rate with a 2 handed weapon. This will indirectly affect PLD with a Staff/Great Sword, but I say that's fine because even if that was remotely still useful (which it obviously isn't) it wouldn't break anything. RUN needs something along the lines of Composure or natural abilities that last long enough that it's not necessary to spend so much time casting.

[Martel]

If you need to add a parry+ spell, I don't think there's any need to re-purpose Reprisal for it. You'd just make it a new spell. Or add it to Foil.

Or they could just make Foil's eva+ count for normal attacks as well as WS. Instant evasion tanking viability.

[Rwolf]

They could do either, I was just thinking of it from a standpoint of what's the easiest thing to do which is add it to something existing. Foil could be extended but it makes more sense for Reprisal to work on blocking than for Foil suddenly to. Going on what the abilities do versus their actual names.

[Ulth]

OK.

"Charm does not equal love."

When the CHARM job ability is used, a long chain of PINK LOVE HEARTS goes from you to the mob. Also it is simple logic, if the person/mob loves you they will follow you blindly as a pet and they will die for you. They wouldn't die for you if they only quite liked you a little bit.

I played BST main job from Summer 2004 to late 2006, when I changed to PUP. During those 2+ years when I played BST every single day in the old hardmode charm everything solo-to-75 and solo-merits, I totally noticed the difference on charming mobs on Darksday. My LS was all BST, until PUP arrived and many of us changed to PUP. All the BST on my LS reported the same thing about Darksday.

When I didn't use my lightstaff, my charm failed way more often. I tried this while meleeing with CHR axes and trying to charm same time, it never had the same success rate as using lightstaff.

I used to arrive for LS events and I would be Weakened and level 74 lol. My LS friends would say stuff like "didn't you used to be level 75?" and we would all laugh, and they would look at my weakened level 74 @$$, and simply say "Darksday?" . And everyone knew they meant that I'd had multiple mis-charm deaths on Darksday.

Merrow are aquatic, and the merrow zone is an aqua zone. That is why it has water def. The resist charm is because that species use 'belly dance' charm. It is a specific item relating to a specific species and area.

Oh wow anecdotal evidence about how you and the other people playing BST in your LS had the same opinion. Did any of you record the number of times charm failed and succeeded on darksday, lightsday, and a thrid day as a control to come to this conclusion?

By the exact impact they mean how much does it increase. The fact that it does increase is highly documented even if you don't count the countless testimonials of bsts from back in the day but testing of exact rates not as much. Iirc over on allahkazam there was testing using gauge since that gives an accurate magic hit rate (though it is a range) which was used to determine a few things about macc of charm. On top of that any Run who tanks anything with charm can tell you what a difference Tenebrae pflug will make. The difference is stark enough where there is no way it's eyeballing error

As a matter of fact I do not count testimonials from back in the day as fact. And for it being a highly documented fact I can't find much documentation of it being fact other than people just saying it's fact. I also tried to find the tests with gauge you mentioned, but only found this thread from the BG forums.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/572...Magic-Accuracy

From what I can conclude from their testing is that either Apollo staff and magic accuracy don't affect charm, or that gauge doesn't take them into account.

I'm sure it's been properly tested enough times for it not to be 'confirmation bias.' that's not something BG has really been prone to. Information that isn't solidly proven tends to get removed, even if it's not necessarily wrong.

Why are you so quick to question everything, lol? If the information was wrong you wouldn't be able to pass the quiz using it.

Most status effects don't have it explicitly stated anywhere in the game what element they're associated with; this is something that players have figured out over the years. Mobs that resist a certain element also have higher resist status effects associated with a certain element.

BG didn't say anything about failing on darksday. Stompa said that. How they answer my rhetorical question will let you know if it's confirmation biases or not.

People could still pass the quiz even without knowing the right answer to what element charm is because it only asked about one status, so provided it can ask about any on the list you only have a 1/23 chance of running into it.

I know status don't have their element stated out all the time. For example, I for one would really like to know if and what the element for HP down is. I also am very aware that certain monsters are resistant to certain elements. Like how slimes are resistant to water. Which makes this line from the BGwiki charm page very interesting.

"Some families of mobs have a stronger resistance to Charm than others. Most notably Slimes"

As for me questioning, that might be the most insulting thing I have ever heard. It's like saying "How dare you think for yourself and not believe everything I tell you!" I asked for empirical evidence and was met with the equivalent of "I know a guy, who knows a guy, who says it's true."

I understand I don't have proof either, but I certainly have enough to support my hypothesis and warrant some actual testing. I even suggested a way to test it, though from looking at the edit history of the quest I have my doubts charm might even be asked.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Le...?oldid=1455839
At this point charm was not one of the status listed.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Le...?oldid=1458088
Then the next change someone who had made no previous changes to the quest page changed it to include charm.

They could be right, they could be wrong. The person who made a change to the charm status effect page could be right or wrong too. This is why people should ask questions. To find out what is right. Some testing will be involved unless a community rep wants to magically appear and tell us straight from the developers mouth what status is what.

[dasva]

You're right I think they were doing gauge for other things been a long time since I read alla.... here ya go

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.htm...6&h=50&p=6#280