dagger ws too OP?

[Camiie]

WAR and DRK may not be God-tier, but I've never been turned away from any current events on WAR nor seen it happen to any other WARs or DRKs. Conversely I've never seen anyone care about steps or anything else a DNC/BST/NIN brings.

BLU has been utilized yes, even before the update. I guess that means they didn't need any boosts? And yes I'll give you that THFs have been wanted for TH, but they've had to pay a huge price for that ability in the name of "balance." Now SE is finally lowering that price and people are losing their shit. I guess people want THFs to go back to the old days where they were only allowed to poke the HNM du jour once and then go hide in a corner.

[Afania]

WAR and DRK may not be God-tier, but I've never been turned away from any current events on WAR nor seen it happen to any other WARs or DRKs. Conversely I've never seen anyone care about steps or anything else a DNC/BST/NIN brings.

BLU has been utilized yes, even before the update. I guess that means they didn't need any boosts? And yes I'll give you that THFs have been wanted for TH, but they've had to pay a huge price for that ability in the name of "balance." Now SE is finally lowering that price and people are losing their shit. I guess people want THFs to go back to the old days where they were only allowed to poke the HNM du jour once and then go hide in a corner.

AFAIK ppl with DRK WAR SAM leveled, they're on SAM 100% assuming all jobs equally geared and no personal preference toward 1 specific job. Ppl with THF SAM leveled, they can play both. Personally, I haven't seen many DRK WAR in endgame event since fudo update.

The reason why nobody cares about steps is probably it's harder to find a decent DNC, and it's much easier to /shout for a SAM. That doesn't mean steps suck.

I really don't understand though, you play WAR, and you'd rather let DNC THF pwn WAR all over and still be fine with it. I'm fine with BLU being 2nd tier DD, but if I'm a WAR I wouldn't be happy with WAR being 2nd tier.

[PlumbGame]

AFAIK ppl with DRK WAR SAM leveled, they're on SAM 100% assuming all jobs equally geared and no personal preference toward 1 specific job. Ppl with THF SAM leveled, they can play both. Personally, I haven't seen many DRK WAR in endgame event since fudo update.

The reason why nobody cares about steps is probably it's harder to find a decent DNC, and it's much easier to /shout for a SAM. That doesn't mean steps suck.

I really don't understand though, you play WAR, and you'd rather let DNC THF pwn WAR all over and still be fine with it. I'm fine with BLU being 2nd tier DD, but if I'm a WAR I wouldn't be happy with WAR being 2nd tier.

But by your own arguments earlier, WAR shouldn't be buffed, because they have warcry, and that brings something beneficial to the party, so therefore they shouldn't be doing significant amounts of dmg.

Really though I think thf is probably one of the most played jobs in FFXI now and days. I don't know why they would buff it and not really other jobs right now, but that could be a reason. I'm just hoping this buff is in the right direction and other DD jobs get buffed up to equivalent levels. Realistically, every DD job should be similar on damage, even though SE doesn't want to do that.

Also, lol at BLU being 2nd tier.

[Oakrest]

Duh, THF is a DD tank - having the best treasure hunter option simply won't suffice. With all it's enmity abilities, massive native evasion and from gear, and ability to hit some of the highest WS numbers (as well as white damage via haste/weapon delay) it's clear that THF is meant to be both a DPS and tank. SE is just reminding us how stupid we are for leveling any other job!

[Olor]

You say 1h DD bring other things to the table, but what you're not getting is that those things must have value to matter. No party leader cares about hate control, haste samba, waltzes, or pets because none of these things help in current content. I truly wish that weren't the case, but reality is reality. Their utility wasn't being utilized so they had to be given something beneficial that mattered. Damage is surely that.

Amen. Seriously, I don't see why people are crying about more jobs being usable in content. If this means people feel like they can invite a thf or a dnc instead of another SAM, well then, yay, awesome, more people can play the jobs they like best.

It's funny to see people saying this reduces job diversity after watching months of either MNK MNK MNK WHM BRD SCH or SAM SAM SAM WHM BRD SCH or RNG RNG PLD WHM BRD SCH or some such... seriously.

SAM is still good. Now other jobs are good too. Why cry about it?

[Comeatmebro]

At the top end of the spectrum, with nice gear and nice buffs, SAM still beats THF and the difference is not huge. Effective use of skillchains and SA+TA can make THF the best DD in the game, poor use of skillchains or SA/TA will cause it to lag behind other equally geared DD. I see nothing wrong with this, it's a lot more effort to play THF and effectively SA/TA/Skillchain than it is to spam fudo on SAM(5 step sc is a different story, but THF isn't really in the same league for 1-DD situations). The problem is at the middle-lower end, when you're underbuffed or undergeared.

Generally, in a WKR, the mob of randoms are using trust buffs at most and likely wearing mediocre gear.. they're wsing in the 1-3k range and doing negligible white damage. Due to the nature of sneak attack, even in godawful gear with essentially no buffs a SA rudras is going to do significant and guaranteed damage. A shit THF who can effectively SA(trivial, especially with bully available) is going to do anywhere from 70% to 150% more damage than a shit SAM/MNK/whatever.

Whether it really needs to be scaled back is questionable, it could have been intended as a way for lower end players to increase their usefulness while they catch up. It's not really that much of a threat to balance if you assume everyone has 119 gear and uses swaps effectively(so it doesn't trivialize current tier content any more than it already was), but if you're looking at 117 players without swaps it seems completely absurd.

[Xantavia]

Treasure hunter doesn't count, treasure hunter doesn't count. Everytime when we have a DD hierarchy discussion, and we talk about how useful THF are because it's used in dyna/incursion/all higher tier BC, the only reply we got was "treasure hunter doesn't count, THF dmg suck, buff THF dmg plz". I don't understand, what makes TH doesn't count?

Since THF is already used for TH(which is an undeniable fact), it wouldn't make sense if THF can parse high AND TH.

The devs have always said TH is what makes thf unique, and that trait makes up for not getting any other buffs. But as time goes on, they are giving out more TH stuff to other jobs. THF's defining party role as stated by SE is becoming less important as they allow others to have it. At this point, the only reason TH would count is because a THF can raise it to a higher level, but you can still get some of the benefits without a single thf or /thf in sight.

[Ulth]

I like BLU, but I'd rather play a game with good job variety and balance, not a game with a few OP jobs that completely pwns all other jobs, even if those OP jobs are my favorite jobs. In the case of BLU, it's completely different from other DD, so that's job variety. Due to the versatility it has, it shouldn't outparse other DD jobs, that's balance.

Good game design and job balance > My personal job preference.



Treasure hunter doesn't count, treasure hunter doesn't count. Everytime when we have a DD hierarchy discussion, and we talk about how useful THF are because it's used in dyna/incursion/all higher tier BC, the only reply we got was "treasure hunter doesn't count, THF dmg suck, buff THF dmg plz". I don't understand, what makes TH doesn't count?

Since THF is already used for TH(which is an undeniable fact), it wouldn't make sense if THF can parse high AND TH.



I think you misunderstood??? If anything changing step to 5 sec recast is an improvement, not a nerf. You can reach 23% def down faster, thus it's higher avg def down(and higher pt output over all).

I haven't check spreadsheet for a while, and I don't have access to them atm, so I can't post numbers just yet.....but last time when I checked, if I remember correctly, 23% def down+ the dmg from DNC and 2 other DD> 3 DD, unless your attack is capped.

Now that DNC probably beats most of the weaker 2h DD such as WAR, which is just too OP period.



No pt leader cares about hate control, but they care about TH. Again, I love how ppl purposely filter out the benefit of TH when we talk about THF, so they feel like making THF stronger than WAR is legit.

Nobody cares about haste samba and waltz, but def down from steps does matter.

Those really makes a difference, and the reality is DRK WAR suck, there are no reason to use them in an event since they're not strong enough, and they can't step like DNC, TH like THF, nor sleep/terror/cure/haste/defense down like BLU.

That is not balance, that's bad design.

Treasure hunter doesn't count because half the time it doesn't do anything. It may help in merit fights, and incursion, but drops are guaranteed in delve, and I don't think it does anything for walk of echos either. Even then anything past TH3 matters so little that it isn't worth it. So a ranger with one bounty shot can get about the same drops as a thief all with better hate control and the safety of attacking from out of AoE range. That's why a lot of people forgo thieves in AA fights for more rangers. As for incursion there isn't such a steep cost for entering so they could just do runs faster to make up for a lack of treasure hunter. That is why Treasure Hunter doesn't matter. It doesn't do a whole heck of a lot. Don't get me wrong it is super useful if you need to farm drops from mobs, but matters little with smaller sample sizes.

Also I need to point something out for people who don't know much about playing thief.

For Rudra's, you should do something between 1000 and 1750 unstacked. If you're going to stack it, you should probably do 1750 and shouldn't feel bad about TPing a bit over waiting on timers, particularly if you're going to be able to skillchain.

If you are playing cooperatively with other players and attribute all the skillchain damage to whoever closes it, THF is the best DD in the game right now.

This right here. This is why I like playing thief. I like working as a team. Without anyone to trick attack with, or hold hate while you sneak attack thf's damage is a fraction of what it is. With people helping it's the best in the game. That's balance, and rewarding players for team work.

[Camiie]

AFAIK ppl with DRK WAR SAM leveled, they're on SAM 100% assuming all jobs equally geared and no personal preference toward 1 specific job. Ppl with THF SAM leveled, they can play both. Personally, I haven't seen many DRK WAR in endgame event since fudo update.

I have WAR and SAM leveled and geared and it's my call which I come as. My friend has DRK and was never turned away when a DD was needed either. Is SAM better? Sure. Is WAR plenty good for anything that needs a DD? It is. The same couldn't be said for the 1-hander DDs before the update and some of them still don't have a spot even now. The drop off from WAR and DRK to the 1-handers was more substantial than the drop off from SAM to WAR and DRK. And that's not even taking MNK into account.

The reason why nobody cares about steps is probably it's harder to find a decent DNC, and it's much easier to /shout for a SAM. That doesn't mean steps suck.

Oh here we go... Now you're going to tell us that there's never been a problem with DNC as a job, it's just that only 3 people in the entire world know how to play it right. /sigh If it's so hard to squeeze damage out of the job that only a select few can figure out how to do it, then don't you think that is a sign of a big problem?

I really don't understand though, you play WAR, and you'd rather let DNC THF pwn WAR all over and still be fine with it. I'm fine with BLU being 2nd tier DD, but if I'm a WAR I wouldn't be happy with WAR being 2nd tier.

Yeah you really don't understand. I don't want the DDs to be tiered at all. I don't want it to matter one bit which melee job one brings. I want my WAR and someone else's THF to be on the same level without either of us being dragged downward.

[Olor]

Yeah you really don't understand. I don't want the DDs to be tiered at all. I don't want it to matter one bit which melee job one brings. I want my WAR and someone else's THF to be on the same level without either of us being dragged downward.

Amen. Seriously this.