So now what?

[Protey]

I usually use Sole Sushi for high end content. We only have 3 song bards in our group, and we typically run with 7 so the RDM is the only one in the outside party. And yes, most of RDMs who choose to melee don't know what they are doing, and most of the ones who do know what they are doing feel that meleeing isn't worth it. That is what I would like to change, there will always be bad players, I want to give the good ones more options.

try riverfin soup.

[Glamdring]

rdm, or any mage for that matter, can melee and still perform their duties, although geo and bard have to seriously think about it due to the need for positioning when trying to work buffs. The real barrier isn't the "you're just feeding the mob TP" argument-wth do you think the melee DD are feeding it, milkbones?-it's the lack of durability of mages meleeing. yes, rdm has some sweet damage mitigation spells, but reapplying them means taking time from our normal buff/debuff cycles, and frankly working those cycles keeps us from putting out melee damage a significant part of the time. now, given the lack of durability and the increased chance of interruption from being in melee range-not to mention all the boss mobs with AoE debuff moves like silence, para, terror, etc. it generally isn't worth it for mages to get in the melee groups, even if we can put up good numbers by picking our WS properly for the mob; it also makes us more of an MP sponge than the standard melee DDs. Sure we can try to self-heal, but again that breaks us from our buff/debuff cycle.

I'll readily admit I am not anywhere near a top-flight rdm-of the 12 ilevel 119 jobs I currently have it's about #10 on the priority list for getting gear, and with ilevel gear is of paramount importance. But I still seem to be better off /whm and spamming buffs/debuffs with back-up healing during any downtime-few and far between with our lack of AoE buffing. That's one of the main reasons sch gets preferential treatment over rdm and it seems that is intentional by SE to see that sch keeps it's appeal when designing a pt. with the additional concern of keeping geo relevant it's even less likely that we will get AoE.

What's the answer? damned if I know. The most logical with SE's stated intention of keeping us as buffers/debuffers is to drastically increase the effectiveness of those spells from rdm over other jobs-the trade being we have to cast 6 times to haste a whole pt. and yet they keep worrying that doing so will upset the balance and kill other jobs. Methinks they underestimate the concern of pt designers about that 6 casts to buff the pt issue, it's a lot more of an issue for designers than SE seems to think in my experience.

[Protey]

yes, rdm has some sweet damage mitigation spells, but reapplying them means taking time from our normal buff/debuff cycles, and frankly working those cycles keeps us from putting out melee damage a significant part of the time.

what are you even talking about. there are 4 damage mitigation spells for rdm... protect, shell, phalanx, and stoneskin. Protect/Shell you apply once every what, 40 minutes or so? phalanx you apply same time as you do refresh 2, which is once about every 12 minutes. stoneskin takes all of 2 seconds to apply. being in off party you only have one buff you are doing... either haste 2, or flurry 2. Maybe, if you are bringing an extra mage in your party a refresh2. How do those 4 mitigation spells even remotely come close to taking time from buff/debuff cycles? I don't know about your buff/debuff cycles, but we have this ability called composure, and this gear called empyrean that makes our buffs last longer on others. We also have this trait and gear called fast cast. Most fights will end before your buffs on others even wear off. So other than a couple debuffs, you should be able to melee the entire time.

now, given the lack of durability and the increased chance of interruption from being in melee range-not to mention all the boss mobs with AoE debuff moves like silence, para, terror, etc. it generally isn't worth it for mages to get in the melee groups, even if we can put up good numbers by picking our WS properly for the mob; it also makes us more of an MP sponge than the standard melee DDs. Sure we can try to self-heal, but again that breaks us from our buff/debuff cycle.

lack of durability? are you kidding? rdm is one of the most durable jobs there is. increased chance of interruption? aquaveil is your friend. if you are fighting a mob that does knockback, put your back to the wall. debuffs on you? remedies/panacea. MP sponge? what are you talking about, RDM cures itself. RDM is more durable than standard melee DDs too, so don't know where you are getting that nonsense. How does healing ourselves break buff/debuff? cures takes all of 1 second to cast, or as my favorite, cure myself with sanguine blade.

[Dale]

lack of durability? are you kidding? rdm is one of the most durable jobs there is. increased chance of interruption? aquaveil is your friend. if you are fighting a mob that does knockback, put your back to the wall. debuffs on you? remedies/panacea. MP sponge? what are you talking about, RDM cures itself. RDM is more durable than standard melee DDs too, so don't know where you are getting that nonsense. How does healing ourselves break buff/debuff? cures takes all of 1 second to cast, or as my favorite, cure myself with sanguine blade.

I agree. Anyone who thinks Red Mage is fragile just hasn't explored their defense potential before. They have access to such great gear and spells they can sustain themselves very effectively while still maintaining a healthy offense in the process.

I also agree that melee shouldn't interfere with our buff/debuff cycles. If anything interferes with that, it's going to be using our heals to keep others alive.

[Glamdring]

I was addressing a rdm who is meleeing in a party, not an alliance and still trying to do all the buffer/debuffer roles. a party is not likely to have 2 or 3 buffers/debuffers. and I disagree that all we are cycling is pro, shell, phalanx and stoneskin. I at least am hasting, and/or flurrying the party and refreshing any casting jobs as well as regening on the melees, not to mention, blinding, slowing, paralyzing, dispelling, silencing and dia/bio the mob, the occasional bind and/or gravity, frazzle and/or distract, sleeping adds and back-up healing. If all I was worried about is myself then yes, those 4 spells, plus haste, temper, likely ice spikes and aquaveil would be sufficient, and an enspell 2, generally enblizzard to make my spikes proc more, and of course a refresh 2 on me. but in a party I at least am working my ass off to maximize my contribution-hell, I might even cast a nuke.

I realize this might be a foreign concept to some but there is in fact content that doesn't involve swapping in people to beat it, and there are even rdms who would like to be more than a situational swap guy, in fact a full-fledged, full-time contributing member of the party.

As to damage mitigation when meleeing, um, we get hit a lot unless we are fighting weak prey, aquaveil is stripped by damage-not sure of the exact amount but getting hit will take it down eventually. and of course if we are meleeing in a party then we are mixed in with the DD, who are happily feeding the mob TP which end-game mobs seem to take a perverse joy out of using in AoE TP moves that will be hitting us, and likely stripping our shadows, stoneskin, phalanx and possibly even the aquaveil in 1-2 moves max. If I'm still doing my job for the party it doesn't leave me a whole lot of time to rebuff my defensive spells.

I don't know, maybe you guys only play in content where you swap players in and out, but I just don't see us as being nearly effective in our primary casting role when we are in the mob's grill, even if we can WS for nice effect.

[Protey]

I was addressing a rdm who is meleeing in a party, not an alliance and still trying to do all the buffer/debuffer roles. a party is not likely to have 2 or 3 buffers/debuffers.

name an instance when this happens.

and I disagree that all we are cycling is pro, shell, phalanx and stoneskin.

yes, rdm has some sweet damage mitigation spells, but reapplying them means taking time from our normal buff/debuff cycles, and frankly working those cycles keeps us from putting out melee damage a significant part of the time.

you can disagree all you want, but you are wrong. you said "damage mitigation spells".

I at least am hasting, and/or flurrying the party and refreshing any casting jobs as well as regening on the melees

since when is rdm in the main party? i can count all of the times on 1 hand, unless you are counting back at 75 cap days doing colibri meripo, or are you just talking about exp/cp parties? If by some chance you aren't in an alliance, that means there is only three DD for you to haste. So that isn't taking up much time. nor is the refreshing of the whm. the other slot is most likely a brd.

not to mention, blinding, slowing, paralyzing, dispelling, silencing and dia/bio the mob, the occasional bind and/or gravity, frazzle and/or distract, sleeping adds and back-up healing.

the only time you need to do all that is in alliance content on difficult NMs. For single party do Dia3, if even that. Single party stuff almost everything dies too fast to enfeeble.

If all I was worried about is myself then yes, those 4 spells, plus haste, temper, likely ice spikes and aquaveil would be sufficient, and an enspell 2, generally enblizzard to make my spikes proc more, and of course a refresh 2 on me.

bolded: ok, you can stop talking now. go learn, come back when you have read why those don't go together. you would also do gain STR or DEX, btw. why would you need your spikes to be proccing? are the sam, thf, mnk not alive?

As to damage mitigation when meleeing, um, we get hit a lot unless we are fighting weak prey, aquaveil is stripped by damage-not sure of the exact amount but getting hit will take it down eventually.

why are you tanking? did the sam, thf, mnk die?

and of course if we are meleeing in a party then we are mixed in with the DD, who are happily feeding the mob TP which end-game mobs seem to take a perverse joy out of using in AoE TP moves that will be hitting us, and likely stripping our shadows, stoneskin, phalanx and possibly even the aquaveil in 1-2 moves max.

why are you using shadows on mobs that do AoE? why are you losing phalanx? and aquaveil? you do know there is this thing called casting when you aren't getting hit right? NMs that are doing AoE don't do so every 1/2 a second, they are very slow at it. And what do we have that enables us to cast between those moves? you got it, Fast Cast. Time your spells like you're supposed to. We also have this thing called PDT set, but you will only wear that when the other DD are. now here's the thing.... if you are on the front lines you are just like the other DD that need to get cured. So what does that mean? the WHM is casting curaga! That whm isn't spending even one more mp on you.

If I'm still doing my job for the party it doesn't leave me a whole lot of time to rebuff my defensive spells.

suck less and you will.

I don't know, maybe you guys only play in content where you swap players in and out, but I just don't see us as being nearly effective in our primary casting role when we are in the mob's grill, even if we can WS for nice effect.

The only jobs I know of that get swapped out are BRD/COR/GEO. why do you have this whacked notion that casting is our primary role? we are ALL roles whenever we want to be. Most of the time we do not need to cast. You cast your buffs before fighting an NM, cast a couple debuffs that are appropriate for that NM, and spend the rest of the time meleeing. If something goes wrong, you switch roles.