So now what?

[Zekander]

Yes, I failed to mention that SMN has to be in party to buff while RDM doesn't, but if that's the only thing making RDM more useful then SMN then that is sad...

Any job can tank NMs in delve/incursion/whatever, I do it on WHM all the time. I've never done it on RDM before simply because during normal operation (IE buffing and debuffing) RDM is extremely low hate, and quickly getting your hate up when the tank dies requires spamming Cure IV, which requires your WHM to either be dead or to know ahead of time to let you cure when the tank dies. So this is obviously not a common occurrence.

Finally, you simply cannot use Wopket as an example of RDM damage potential because Wopket is vulnerable to slashing damage (which few other NMs are) so comparing your damage to a MNK on Wopket is severely skewing the results. The fact is that RDM is one of the worst jobs at dealing damage by any means under almost all other circumstances.

[Protey]

Yes, I failed to mention that SMN has to be in party to buff while RDM doesn't, but if that's the only thing making RDM more useful then SMN then that is sad...

Any job can tank NMs in delve/incursion/whatever, I do it on WHM all the time. I've never done it on RDM before simply because during normal operation (IE buffing and debuffing) RDM is extremely low hate, and quickly getting your hate up when the tank dies requires spamming Cure IV, which requires your WHM to either be dead or to know ahead of time to let you cure when the tank dies. So this is obviously not a common occurrence.

Finally, you simply cannot use Wopket as an example of RDM damage potential because Wopket is vulnerable to slashing damage (which few other NMs are) so comparing your damage to a MNK on Wopket is severely skewing the results. The fact is that RDM is one of the worst jobs at dealing damage by any means under almost all other circumstances.

why is it sad? they both have utility. rdm is just preferred because they don't have to swap into the DD party.

and no, not any job can tank NMs in delve. try having a BRD or a COR tanking an NM... they'll die very shortly. it's also not good for most jobs to tank because that move that Podarge does that kills the PLD? yea it can kill just about everyone else. When it hits you for damage, it will gain TP. A RDM can pretty much not give any TP whatsoever waiting for that PLD to recover.

I don't know why you think RDM is extremely low hate... can't count how many times I have taken hate from NMs in delve. Do a 7k WS that has a 18k SC... hate city. Got to say... <3 Sanguine Blade for curing myself.

RDM is not one of the worst jobs at dealing damage by any means under almost all other circumstances. I think you don't play the job or don't know how to play it effectively. RDM has this sword WS known as Requiescat that bypasses physical damage resistances. We destroy NMs that normal DD have a hard time with. Go try out CDC too. RDM is doing some great damage with the latest update.

Another thing... smn enfeebles and buffs are limited to at best about once every 35 seconds for each. RDM has no such limitation.

[Zekander]

So you sub WAR i'm guessing, since RDM has no native access to Sanguine Blade. Any time Requiscat would have a use, a MNK with Formless Strikes would have it dead before you got TP ready, not to mention the fact that many other jobs also have access to this weaponskill. Yes the latest update helped RDM considerably, but it also helped many other jobs (some more then others, hi2u Rudra's), but I'll concede that RDM has moved up, before the update I would say that RDM was considerably worse then WHM for melee DD. However, club WS didn't get as much of a boost as sword WS did so now RDM is comfortably leading WHM and GEO, but still lags far behind most other jobs. Not that I even want RDM to be a prime DD mind you, I simply want RDM melee to be an accepted option. I would love for there to be a reason for RDM to be on the front lines other then direct damage.

Not sure how you are getting those WS numbers on anything stronger then trash mobs. Guessing you were fully buffed by at least a BRD, meaning you were in the main party taking up that slot that you say SMNs have no right to. Also in order to make that SC you need to rely on another player to open for you, not that that is hard but other jobs can make their own skillchains (hello mr.BLU).

Your final point is mostly irrelevant since their long buff duration allows SMN to maintain several buffs easily, though admittedly it makes it hard to do both enfeebling and buffing, it does not however hinder their DPS significantly. The only time this might be an issue is when fighting a mob that strips all buffs, but even then not really because it would take a RDM quite some time to rebuff the party anyway. This is also ignoring Avatar's Favor which can supply an additional AOE Temper, Refresh, or other buffs that RDM does not even have access to and is also immune to dispel to boot.

[Protey]

Any time Requiscat would have a use, a MNK with Formless Strikes would have it dead before you got TP ready.

This is blatantly false. Have you ever done delve?

RDM is comfortably leading WHM and GEO, but still lags far behind most other jobs.

What do you consider lagging far behind? On average RDM does 80-85% the damage of a mnk in delve (not just wopket). Are we going to have #s like zomg koga sam? not even close. Let's see what other jobs we can compare to: PLD - RDM clearly wins, though PLD should be around the same damage if they didn't have to perform their job. BRD - with rudras brd should be pulling ahead. BLM - RDM ahead unless the mob is weak to magic damage and doesn't have high magic evasion. SCH - a 2hr SCH will probably pull ahead with that massive DoT they can do assuming NM isn't resistant. BST - hard to tell, I don't party with BST, lol, but I'm thinking it should be somewhat close. PUP - does less than a mnk, so should be a little bit closer probably 85-90%. COR - hard to tell... usually COR is shooting in the back, though I have seen a melee COR; typically not that great of a DDer, but like RDM can be if work at it, however kind of hard for them to do damage as they need both melee and ranged buffs unless they are just sitting in the back shooting. I'm going to say about even assuming they get the buffs they need, though they'll pull ahead on piercing weak mobs. BLU - the other sword wielder... zerging an NM the BLU will win for sure as their JAs promote this well. Otherwise they are slightly ahead of RDM. RUN, like PLD will do less damage than a RDM unless it doesn't have to tank and just focus on DD. DRG, RNG, THF, DNC, WAR, NIN, DRK - clearly these jobs will outperform a RDM... the degree is up for debate as it is dependent on the mob and resistances it possesses if any at all. So I ask again... what do you consider lagging far behind? And I will also say this.... a live RDM will outperform a dead DD (assuming the mob isn't almost dead).

Not that I even want RDM to be a prime DD mind you, I simply want RDM melee to be an accepted option. I would love for there to be a reason for RDM to be on the front lines other then direct damage.

It already is accepted... at least whenever I go RDM it is. Maybe you haven't proven yourself so the people you roll with don't accept it? What other reason is there to be on the front lines other than to do direct damage? I understand WHM being there on Ircinraq for the sleepga it does and hate reset, I also understand the GEO buff, but other than that people are on the front lines to do damage.

Not sure how you are getting those WS numbers on anything stronger then trash mobs. Guessing you were fully buffed by at least a BRD, meaning you were in the main party taking up that slot that you say SMNs have no right to.

Your analysis is incorrect. 99% of the time I am not in the main party. The BRD has to go to each party to buff anyway, so might as well get DD buffs while there. And also is why I do less damage than my potential as I don't have a dedicated WHM. I have to cure myself. I have to spam remedies to remove paralysis (which sucks if it gets paralyzed over and over). I have to waste melee time to use Panaceas. So even with all this I still put out good damage (between 10-14% of delve bosses, and no, not just wopket).

Your final point is mostly irrelevant since their long buff duration allows SMN to maintain several buffs easily, though admittedly it makes it hard to do both enfeebling and buffing, it does not however hinder their DPS significantly. The only time this might be an issue is when fighting a mob that strips all buffs, but even then not really because it would take a RDM quite some time to rebuff the party anyway. This is also ignoring Avatar's Favor which can supply an additional AOE Temper, Refresh, or other buffs that RDM does not even have access to and is also immune to dispel to boot.

I can recast haste2 about every 5 seconds, so I don't think that is really quite some time, though for the last one casted on I can see that time with it down can seem like forever. And your argument about buff duration on SMN buffs is irrelevant because they have to wait 35+ seconds for each buff, and if the fight lasts longer than the 4? minutes of the buff (obviously buff duration is dependent on how much smn skill the particular smn has, but also the more buffs that are on the party, the shorter duration the ones that are already on will have left) that means the SMN has to stay in the main party. and who wants to keep the smn in the main party when it is taking up the slot of a DD? Also your argument about avatar's favor.... it goes away when your avatar dies, which will happen a lot as almost everything high end does aoe damage.

[Selindrile]

Protey, while I don't completely disagree with you, I have several nitpicks:

Requiescat is rarely actually useful after the CDC buffs, there's a few situations, but, they're few and far between, often you're better off with CDC even accounting for the reductions, though I agree, on these situations, RDM meleeing with Requiescat can be useful.

Can't say I've heard any numbers I felt were concrete enough to say how much a Rdm does VS other melee, that said, they can certainly do enough damage to consider meleeing worthwhile, however, the question is "Does this melee damage justify the detriment to your other jobs?" obviously this depends on the NM, as you have different responsibilities.

Not everyone swaps bards all the time, few people seem to these days, or very frequently in my experience, Rdm solo in the off party, only swaps to give march for the Delve1 boss, if your group does, more power to you, but don't expect an unbuffed Rdm to do as much.

Delve1: You're probably stunning, people bring a Rdm because they can stun solo and also haste2 and dia3, maybe refresh, and handle Mata/other specific debuffs on certian mobs, saving a party slot/bard buff slot. Meleeing may interfere with your stunning duties, especially if selectively stunning, I wouldn't do it, but if you feel it's worth it, more power to you. On stun-not-crucial mobs, sure, why not.

Delve2: Haste2/Dia3/Frazzle2/Distract2, specific nukes on specific mobs, debuff removal, on some of these mobs I'd prioritize missing aoe debuffs and removing them from others, something complicated by receiving these debuffs yourself by being on the front line.

Haste2 recast every 5 seconds? With March and without composure, cast on yourself, probably, but cast on someone else and maximizing duration (IE: Abyssea Gear + Composure, probably looking at more like 8~12 seconds)

As for it competing with a party slot with Rdm, situational but it's not a completely foreign concept, Smn could swap parties to keep everyone hastega'd and gives the added bonus of other buffs in certain situations, provides you a great way to deal with trash mobs in Delve (pet sleepga pull) at the cost of Dia3/Distract2/Frazzle2, and a reliable low cooldown stun if that's needed. So not always a viable swap, but situationally, I could see it.

[Zekander]

Selindrile has the right of it, the situation is complicated.

And yes I am prone to exaggeration, but so are you it would seem. You never really answered my question as to how you got those numbers, even on trash mobs and dual wielding seeing a 7k CDC is fairly rare and a skillchain of more then 200% WS damage even with skillchain bonus from /DNC I've simply never seen.

You have a BRD that is willing to swap parties solely to give you melee buffs, that's great for you, I don't. You have friends who allow you to melee in high end content, that's great for you, I don't. You are most certainly going to rebuff this with 'lulz get better friendz' but you have to realize that 90% of the playerbase do not share your glorified opinion of RDM and I am simply asking that we try to work together to change that.

[Protey]

Delve1: You're probably stunning, people bring a Rdm because they can stun solo and also haste2 and dia3, maybe refresh, and handle Mata/other specific debuffs on certian mobs, saving a party slot/bard buff slot. Meleeing may interfere with your stunning duties, especially if selectively stunning, I wouldn't do it, but if you feel it's worth it, more power to you. On stun-not-crucial mobs, sure, why not.

Delve2: Haste2/Dia3/Frazzle2/Distract2, specific nukes on specific mobs, debuff removal, on some of these mobs I'd prioritize missing aoe debuffs and removing them from others, something complicated by receiving these debuffs yourself by being on the front line.

Haste2 recast every 5 seconds? With March and without composure, cast on yourself, probably, but cast on someone else and maximizing duration (IE: Abyssea Gear + Composure, probably looking at more like 8~12 seconds)

i never go as stunner in delve.

i don't go for maximizing duration on haste2, i do a mix of recast and duration so as to get the buffs up quickly.

[Protey]

Selindrile has the right of it, the situation is complicated.

And yes I am prone to exaggeration, but so are you it would seem. You never really answered my question as to how you got those numbers, even on trash mobs and dual wielding seeing a 7k CDC is fairly rare and a skillchain of more then 200% WS damage even with skillchain bonus from /DNC I've simply never seen.

You have a BRD that is willing to swap parties solely to give you melee buffs, that's great for you, I don't. You have friends who allow you to melee in high end content, that's great for you, I don't. You are most certainly going to rebuff this with 'lulz get better friendz' but you have to realize that 90% of the playerbase do not share your glorified opinion of RDM and I am simply asking that we try to work together to change that.

what food are you using? and i'm /war. Also, we always roll with a 4-song (5 with clarion call) bard. maybe you don't, I don't know the specifics of your situation.

as to counter your argument of 2nd paragraph: tell your brd to stop being lazy; it's not just to give me melee buffs, it's to give the other people in the party their buffs too.

[dasva]

You have a BRD that is willing to swap parties solely to give you melee buffs, that's great for you, I don't. You have friends who allow you to melee in high end content, that's great for you, I don't. You are most certainly going to rebuff this with 'lulz get better friendz' but you have to realize that 90% of the playerbase do not share your glorified opinion of RDM and I am simply asking that we try to work together to change that.

That's partly because 99.99% of them are terribad. I love to melee on rdm but I can count the times I've been in high level content where an rdm meleeing helped the group more than him not meleeing on 0 hands. And almost everytime they did it almost caused a wipe.

[Zekander]

I usually use Sole Sushi for high end content. We only have 3 song bards in our group, and we typically run with 7 so the RDM is the only one in the outside party. And yes, most of RDMs who choose to melee don't know what they are doing, and most of the ones who do know what they are doing feel that meleeing isn't worth it. That is what I would like to change, there will always be bad players, I want to give the good ones more options.