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  1. #1
    Player Jile's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    389
    Character
    Jile
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99

    DEV Suggestion to make adjustments to CE and VE - Quality of Life

    This post is around the premise that you desire to see a traditional 'tank' in FFXI. If you do not agree with that premise, this post will just annoy you and it's best to just move on and ignore it. lol

    Back in the day the -60VE/sec decay functioned much more effectively than today and a significant adjustment needs put into place to regain the 'function' of a tank role if SE still finds importance in such a role?

    Enmity as it stands, as I understand it (and paraphrased from the bg-wiki):

    Cumulative Enmity (CE) is generated when doing damage or using almost any spell or ability until a player has reached the cap of 10,000CE.

    Volatile Enmity (VE) is generated when doing damage or using some spells and abilities to a cap of 10,000VE

    Total Enmity (TE) is simply a sum of the player's Cumulative Enmity and Volatile Enmity. The cap on total enmity is 20,000. A monster with hate will target the player on the hate list with the highest total enmity.

    Adjustment suggestions:

    1) Change the current -60VE/second decay to -1000VE/second for all jobs except PLD, RUN and NIN.

    2) Add a decay (currently there isn't a decay) to CE matching the level of adjustment on VE. -1000CE/second.

    3) Perhaps most critically: Adjust the CE and VE caps on PLD and NIN to 15,000 each where these two tanking jobs could increase their odds of maintaining enmity control over the tanked mob in question.

    4) I would also like a JA to be created for PLD and RUN that works in the complete opposite of Enmity Douse, perhaps called Enmity Engulf, which would max TE at my suggested 30,000 so a PLD or RUN could initiate a fight with maximum CE/VE, perhaps as a new 1-hour ability to be used on higher tier fights.

    There's no question to the fact this old topic has stirred heated debates for years but no effective adjustments have been made to really rectify these issues.

    --

    Camate - Thank you for being so active in the forums so I ask you specifically - Are there any thoughts on the future of tanking/enmity that the DEV team are looking into that you can share or even hint at?

    --

    Thoughts?
    (4)
    Last edited by Jile; 11-16-2014 at 09:36 AM. Reason: Included RUN instead of just PLD and NIN.

  2. #2
    Player Kuroganashi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Bismark
    Posts
    154
    Character
    Kuroganashi
    World
    Bismarck
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Agreed !

    Could also make new Spells for Enmity last longer >.> Among others ?

    as a NIN PLD RUN spells keep running out too quick >< Mid-battle even , Recasting them not only impairs my DPS but also makes me Vunerable to enemy for a few short seconds (1~3 seconds) But still annoying........... when I have to focus on the Fight I gotta keep Recasting shit.
    (1)

  3. #3
    Community Rep Grekumah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    349
    Enmity control is not only something that is crucial for a tank; it’s also something that the entire party needs to be concerned with. Due to this, we do not have any plans to make adjustments so that only tanks are able to completely control enmity. It’s for this same reason that we are not thinking about increasing the enmity cap on tanks.

    In a future version update we are planning to make enmity adjustments by adding methods to certain jobs to reduce a set amount of enmity. We’d like players to hang in there for a while until these adjustments are made.
    (5)
    Colby "Grekumah" Casaccia - Community Team

  4. #4
    Player Akivatoo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    59
    Character
    Akivatoo
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    lol
    /delete PLD item
    /reroll Brainless DD
    /bow SE
    (0)

  5. #5
    Player Zhronne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    1,050
    Character
    Sechs
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Grekumah View Post
    Due to this, we do not have any plans to make adjustments so that only tanks are able to completely control enmity.
    Then may I ask in which situations exactely do the devs see us using a Tank job? Why should player bring tanks to a particular event instead than a group of Damage dealers that will produce more damage, faster, without having to worry about "holding up" their damage but allowing them to go all out?

    Not sure if anybody of you devs played the game or any other game over the last years. Holding up a bit is okayish I guess, but the amount of holding back that would be necessary to make tank jobs work is beyond that. Are you at least aware or are you pretending not to see the elephant in the room?

    Thanks for your time.
    (9)
    And the autumn of life has finally come
    with the promise of winter thaw.

  6. #6
    Player Malthar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    674
    Character
    Malthar
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    I think Dale hijacked Grekumah's mind. lol
    Brainjack! You can have this.
    (0)

  7. #7
    Player Draylo's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    778
    They are probably referring to THF using enmity reducing tactics, SCH can too. I can see those being more beneficial instead of a tank holding hate 24/7 with no penalty.
    (4)

  8. #8
    Player Zhronne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    1,050
    Character
    Sechs
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    I concur with that Draylo, but there's a long way between the current situation and a Tank holding hate 24/7 afk.
    A whole new world of shades in between those extremes.
    (7)
    And the autumn of life has finally come
    with the promise of winter thaw.

  9. #9
    Actually, I think that yes, they expect thieves to control enmity, but moreso they expect players to play the way they did for 8 years and LET the tank hold enmity. In other words, hold back on the Zerg and work your fights as a team. I've seen too many "DD DPS is everything" threads to think that will ever happen again however so this is wishful thinking on the devs part. Still, they could win this fight if they really wanted, designing mobs in new content with great gear but that can only realistically be defeated using a party with a dedicated tank and coordinated actions-we are somewhat used to this with all the fights currently generally beaten with monks, sams and rng spamming light skillchains but that won't work nearly as well if they add a mechanism requiring a tank to upcoming content. However, given the way they have "fixed" Rune as the tank they wanted I think it's fair to say they haven't a clue yet on how to make content that requires a tank when they can't even make a dedicated tank job a tank.

    Yeah, I'd say there's some work ahead for the devs here.
    (2)

  10. #10
    Player Rwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    372
    Character
    Rwolf
    World
    Bismarck
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    I will say there is nothing wrong inherently with having a more intricate difficult tanking system and enmity being a strategy. However, I personally find glaring issues with this working successfully.

    Time limit on content: Almost all current item level content is locked by time to complete. Which in turn promotes strategies that are about being as time efficient as possible. More time = more room for error. The vision that we should have damage dealers restrain their damage output by not engaging or turning around is not going to fly as common acceptance. Stopping damage is the only way you're going to currently keep a monster's attention on the tank without enmity tricks. All strategy boils down to cost versus benefit. The cost to slowing down damage is too high comparative to the benefit you receive from it.

    Genre generalization & expectations: The general expectation of a tank class is that it can tank. Tanks by gaming definition are classes that redirect enemy attacks or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units. Protect bolded because to me, it defines their role, damage mitigation. So the expectation is to some extent a tank should be able to hold enmity onto themselves to make it easier on healing. While a White Mage may rely on a Bard or Red Mage for MP sustainability and support. They have the ability to do their job from a base level without much cooperation.

    Mutual desire to retain difficulty: Some players and developers prefer the enmity system not be too easy. I don't have a hard opinion either way. I do believe it doesn't have to be easy, but it should be simple. Those are different things. For example, auto-attacking and firing off some instant abilities to hold hate is easy. Anticipating party member output, balancing enmity gain versus enmity loss, and coordinating when to use high damage abilities (like SP) with enmity control is simple. Simple in easy to understand but still requires some thought.

    Enmity manipulation made required, not a boon: Enmity manipulation should be a buff in my opinion, it is raw damage mitigation. It is a way to support your party by increasing damage output safely and a way to assist recovery if something bad happens. While damage dealers shouldn't be able to go full offensive with no penalties, there should be a general threshold of moderate damage without much danger. Enmity and potential time completed should be considered when creating content and associating what the content level is. If "X" level party goes into a 45 minute timed area with a tank job. Can they complete a majority of this without stacking all of their (and potentially outsider -_-) abilities/buffs/debuffs/etc?
    (6)
    Last edited by Rwolf; 11-21-2014 at 11:15 AM. Reason: minor grammar changes

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