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  1. #11
    Player Zhronne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glamdring View Post
    but moreso they expect players to play the way they did for 8 years and LET the tank hold enmity.
    I don't think they really expect that, if they do it would mean they're completely oblivious to the current state of the game.
    It's not just only a matter of habits as you imply (altough I reckon that plays a part for sure).
    It's a matter of the damage>enmity conversion formula. Back at level 75 it wasn't as easy as it is now to reach the enmity cap, the conversion ratio made sense at the time. DDs could hold up their damage within reason, make use of Trick Attack and several other means etc. Well, this system kinda started to crumble towards the end of the 75 era, but it worked just fine for many years.
    Wether it was fun or not it's another story I don't wanna discuss that.

    My point is that atm it's not possible because the conversion ratio has never been thoroughfully and massively fixed since when they increased the level 75 cap. All we got is a series of small tweaks that are welcome but didn't fix anything.
    It's also a matter of appareant incoherence with their policies.
    Remember when they did a pretty large enmity maneuver at the beginning of SoA to bring back the conversion and the levels within reason? But then released weapons with insane base damage, bringing total damage (and so enmity generated) up again, and then added +skill to those weapons, and then released Empy WSs for everybody, and then furtherly empowered WSs and Skillchain.
    The situation is completely out of control.
    How do you expect a single job (THF) with several minutes cooldown JAs to fix all that?

    Is this the way a game designer plans to fix a pretty obvious flaw in the system? By making a job mandatory meaning that you won't be able to play tank strategies without that job? Or if that job gets amnesiaed, killed, paralyzed etc?
    It sounds like an incredibly naive and weak solution to a much larger issue, if that's really what they're planning.
    So I'm hoping to see more on that regard from the devs in the months to come, not the usual Grekumah™ "We currently have no plans" stuff
    (nothing against Grek of course, he just relays the news to us, doesn't produce them ^^)
    (2)
    Last edited by Zhronne; 11-21-2014 at 07:49 PM.
    And the autumn of life has finally come
    with the promise of winter thaw.

  2. #12
    Player Zhronne's Avatar
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    Also to furtherly emphasize what I meant with "holding damage a bit is fine, but this is too much".
    Please check other games. Yes, FFXI has a different gameplay model but mine is just an example, I don't expect FFXI to become something that is not.
    Tell me where in other games you see damage dealers who can never go all out under any other circumstances except when there are no tanks/you're zerging. Because that's what is happening in FFXI.
    You'd be basically forced to cut your dps by more than half to make the system work, and that wouldn't even be enough probably.

    Now is that "fine"? Is that "working as intended"? Is that "fun" when you can't even use the instruments your job has?
    It's fine to avoid going all out too fast, especially on pulls, especially if your gear is so much better than the tank's.
    It's fine to avoid that tanks can keep hate no matter what regardless of everything else (which would de facto eliminate the enmity control element, this is no good).
    It's fine having to hold up a bit for DDs and healers too.
    But what they're asking -if they're really asking it- makes no sense.

    They *have* to do something about enmity if they expect us to use Tanks in content and use DDs in the same pt, instead o the "no tanks just DDs" setup that's been used for the last years. (only other alternative being Tank + RNGs for obvious reasons. Hello out of AoE range and Decoy Shot! Nice to meet you)
    (2)
    And the autumn of life has finally come
    with the promise of winter thaw.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhronne View Post
    I don't think they really expect that, if they do it would mean they're completely oblivious to the current state of the game.
    It's not just only a matter of habits as you imply (altough I reckon that plays a part for sure).
    It's a matter of the damage>enmity conversion formula. Back at level 75 it wasn't as easy as it is now to reach the enmity cap, the conversion ratio made sense at the time. DDs could hold up their damage within reason, make use of Trick Attack and several other means etc. Well, this system kinda started to crumble towards the end of the 75 era, but it worked just fine for many years.
    Wether it was fun or not it's another story I don't wanna discuss that.

    My point is that atm it's not possible because the conversion ratio has never been thoroughfully and massively fixed since when they increased the level 75 cap. All we got is a series of small tweaks that are welcome but didn't fix anything.
    It's also a matter of appareant incoherence with their policies.
    Remember when they did a pretty large enmity maneuver at the beginning of SoA to bring back the conversion and the levels within reason? But then released weapons with insane base damage, bringing total damage (and so enmity generated) up again, and then added +skill to those weapons, and then released Empy WSs for everybody, and then furtherly empowered WSs and Skillchain.
    The situation is completely out of control.
    How do you expect a single job (THF) with several minutes cooldown JAs to fix all that?

    Is this the way a game designer plans to fix a pretty obvious flaw in the system? By making a job mandatory meaning that you won't be able to play tank strategies without that job? Or if that job gets amnesiaed, killed, paralyzed etc?
    It sounds like an incredibly naive and weak solution to a much larger issue, if that's really what they're planning.
    So I'm hoping to see more on that regard from the devs in the months to come, not the usual Grekumah™ "We currently have no plans" stuff
    (nothing against Grek of course, he just relays the news to us, doesn't produce them ^^)
    actually, I didn't say it here but over in the summoner thread but yes, I think they ARE in fact oblivious to the state of the game. Look at the support jobs, they are all largely dependent on the party maintaining position and holding the mob in 1 place. We have "backline jobs"-nukers, rangers, etc. also dependent on the mob being kept away so they can even stay alive to keep doing their jobs. Well, I've run with enough different parties to know that mob is NOT staying put as things stand. Now, there are some tactical fixes that can be used like the ranger Decoy Shot onto the tank, but in addition, the bind spell, shadowbind ability, using WS/JA with stun, gravity spells, even spamming sleeps but the problem with those is where they are needed-boss mobs-the mobs are resistant and we players may burn through them too fast for them to be up when needed. We actually have to run strats dependent on the use of 1 hour abilities to have them up. And that isn't real enmity control.

    No, I think the big change needed is to increase the decay rate on the volatile enmity-and maybe to increase the portion of hate that is volatile. If that's done then tank jobs-which generally have more hate generating tools to use-could keep pulling attention back to themselves. The DD would only need to turn away when they had attention for the short interval until they lose it. And thief might have a chance to use their enmity control abilities properly, and then use that great hate freeze ability to proper effect. Of course, if they revamp back-line jobs such that nukers are again desired for large damage output that could also change (and allow bind and sleep and stun spam as well). and to be honest, I miss using nukers in parties.
    (0)

  4. #14
    Player saevel's Avatar
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    RDM Lv 99
    They finally see the primary issue here, that most jobs don't have any reliable enmity sink ability.

    Guys in every MMO a powerful melee can rip hate off the "tank" and frequently does. This is expected and the reason powerful short range DD's are often on high defense gear vs the back line support. The melee is expected to withstand the punishment for short periods of time then the boss NM switch's back to the tank. In FFXI speak this means DD's need to have -DT sets that focus on defense, MDB, MDT, PDT and whatever other defensive stat they can put on.

    The real issue is that due to the enmity system, there is no real way to sink static enmity other then getting your face kicked in. Once your at 10,000CE your pretty much going to be "tank" no matter what you do since VE from damage is a multiplier of CE, if your capping CE you've long since caped VE. The amount of damage you'd have to take to reduce your CE by any appreciable amount is far above our HP totals and the time it takes to recap it is less then 30~60s. Because of this there is zero reason to disengage or "watch hate", your going to cap it super fast and then your going to keep it capped the entire fight with no way of sinking it. Every job needs an enmity sink, the ability to either completely transplant all your hate onto another job (reverse collaborator) or the ability to make a large portion vanish. These abilities need to be on relatively short timers, something on the order of 60~120 seconds, not 5 ~ 10 minutes. In this way melee's could hack away and when things get intense they could take turns sinking their enmity and thus enabling a central melee (the tank) to hold the lions share of hate.
    (3)
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelix
    Ragnarok's aftermath is only 5% crit rate, even with lv99, so there's almost no point in using Scourge, you just spam Resolution. Even then you become just a boring meathead DD.

    Apoc with both Catastrophe and Entropy gives you crazy sustain of both HP and MP. With the Haste aftermath you can wear a ton of -PDT and solo almost any 75 content.
    Doing damage is for WAR's, DRK is about soloing 75 content yo.....

  5. #15
    Player Mefuki's Avatar
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    Fenrir
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    BLU Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Grekumah View Post
    In a future version update we are planning to make enmity adjustments by adding methods to certain jobs to reduce a set amount of enmity.
    I see. Would you like to take this opportunity to finally fix Hydro Shot to do what it was suppose to in the first place?
    (2)
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5cfpeJGwi2KhQjNvCkk5Cg

  6. #16
    Player Zhronne's Avatar
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    @Glamdring
    Working on the decay rate of enmity and/or adding further sources of decay are all good ideas, I like those.
    Not sure if alone they would solve the issue but they would greatly contribute.
    There are 2000 different approaches they could go to "fix" enmity without making it trivial.
    Imho the one that I consider being not the ideal/perfect one maybe, but the one that's likely easier to implement, is the one Byrth suggested. Making the Damage>Enmity conversion and Enmity generation in general, be a dynamic value reliant on the current target's total HP, instead that a fixed value.

    Either way I don't really care, as long as they finally acknowledge the issue and decide to do something big about it.
    So far they haven't, just small, often useless tweaks or ruined by the next patch. It's likely because they're keeping the position Grekumah just exposed, i.e. they think everything is allright (lol)
    (2)
    And the autumn of life has finally come
    with the promise of winter thaw.

  7. #17
    Player Afania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhronne View Post
    Then may I ask in which situations exactely do the devs see us using a Tank job? Why should player bring tanks to a particular event instead than a group of Damage dealers that will produce more damage, faster, without having to worry about "holding up" their damage but allowing them to go all out?

    Not sure if anybody of you devs played the game or any other game over the last years. Holding up a bit is okayish I guess, but the amount of holding back that would be necessary to make tank jobs work is beyond that. Are you at least aware or are you pretending not to see the elephant in the room?

    Thanks for your time.

    Quote Originally Posted by saevel View Post
    They finally see the primary issue here, that most jobs don't have any reliable enmity sink ability.

    Guys in every MMO a powerful melee can rip hate off the "tank" and frequently does. This is expected and the reason powerful short range DD's are often on high defense gear vs the back line support. The melee is expected to withstand the punishment for short periods of time then the boss NM switch's back to the tank. In FFXI speak this means DD's need to have -DT sets that focus on defense, MDB, MDT, PDT and whatever other defensive stat they can put on.

    The real issue is that due to the enmity system, there is no real way to sink static enmity other then getting your face kicked in. Once your at 10,000CE your pretty much going to be "tank" no matter what you do since VE from damage is a multiplier of CE, if your capping CE you've long since caped VE. The amount of damage you'd have to take to reduce your CE by any appreciable amount is far above our HP totals and the time it takes to recap it is less then 30~60s. Because of this there is zero reason to disengage or "watch hate", your going to cap it super fast and then your going to keep it capped the entire fight with no way of sinking it. Every job needs an enmity sink, the ability to either completely transplant all your hate onto another job (reverse collaborator) or the ability to make a large portion vanish. These abilities need to be on relatively short timers, something on the order of 60~120 seconds, not 5 ~ 10 minutes. In this way melee's could hack away and when things get intense they could take turns sinking their enmity and thus enabling a central melee (the tank) to hold the lions share of hate.
    The real issue isn't enmity cap, the real issue is that DD in turtle mode + a good healer can survive pretty much everything in this game. So why do you need a "tank job" if a DPS job can survive just fine. Even if you can have a PLD keep hate off a SAM 100% of time, so what? We're just gonna use a SAM anyways.

    IMO, every DD has access to 50% PDT- and unlimited MP from WHM pants is the real reason why the concept of tank job doesn't work very well in FFXI.
    (1)

  8. #18
    1st off, getting a DD to go into turtle mode is about as easy as trying to convince a schizophrenic that the voices are not real and don't need to be obeyed. And as they WON'T-not can't-go into turtle mode the limitless whm mp suddenly becomes limited. not to mention once they start having to curebomb THEY become the target, which in a well-played party they would not be, nor would they need to curebomb. That is the point of a tank. And quite frankly almost every DD I see, no matter how good they are (or think they are) can't keep a party alive worth a Turkish lira. All going without a tank does is increase the likelihood of a wipe, and that lowers the available time to do the content that the earlier poster brought up. Put it this way, using a tank and moderating damage may add a minute to a 5 minute NM fight, a wipe adds about 6 minutes minimum, coupled with the distinct possibility of having to fight the NM that just wiped you again (likely regened back to 100%), only without the advantage of the 1 hours that were burned trying to live through the hate control clusterF you just had.

    Now, we have tank jobs with hate control tools, we have a couple jobs with the ability to control that hate but in the system as it currently stands that simply does not work. In addition, at least one of those tanks has largely been removed from the table; end-game AoE has largely robbed ninja of the ability to blink tank because shadows last seconds at most. Warrior never really was viable as a full-time tank past about level 30. The eva tanks popularized during the Aby era are not as effective; monks are not as dodgy now and nobody is going to seriously entertain a dancer as a tank these days even if it could hold the hate, which it can't. Beast pets can't tank even with just the master meleeing anymore, Valoredge autos never really could tank despite the intent in the design, and as I said above, getting a DD to forego their damage gear for defensive simply isn't going to happen. And as to a mage trying to tank? same problem as ninja, only their defense is even less impressive. Rune isn't very good unless the mob is tied to 1 or 2 damage types of an elemental nature-although very good then. That leaves paladin, and a paladin needs the party to allow them to get to the hate cap and stay there to be effective, which the DD simply will not allow. And because the DD won't allow that hate to be established the jobs with hate management abilities are largely incapable because the job abilities do require the mob to hold position.

    That's why the system needs an overhaul. Now, as Zhronne pointed out there are several mechanisms that could work, or a combination of them, but the point is the system NEEDS work. Wishful thinking like the DD going into defensive mode isn't a solution, it's a pipe dream.
    (1)
    Last edited by Glamdring; 11-22-2014 at 09:28 AM.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glamdring View Post
    That leaves paladin, and a paladin needs the party to allow them to get to the hate cap and stay there to be effective, which the DD simply will not allow. And because the DD won't allow that hate to be established the jobs with hate management abilities are largely incapable because the job abilities do require the mob to hold position.
    DDs have absolutely nothing to do with how well a Pld can hold hate. If anything, a DD taking hate allows the Pld to better build hate due to no longer losing VE from taking damage, as backwards as that may sound. Establishing hate, letting the Pld cap hate, etc, none of it has anything to do with the DDs. Once you're capped, you're pretty much stuck as VE doesn't degrade quickly enough, that's not some fault of the DDs, unless you expect them to turn around for minutes at a time only to recap with literally a few auto attacks and a WS, if not less. At cap, the positional JA I'm assuming you're referring to is Trick Attack. This will really do nothing at cap, cause surprise, you're capped. I doubt it'd even act as the last action taken, it's probably configured to simply transfer the hate, though I haven't seen any testing to say one way or the other.

    As for the -DT and infinite Whm MP deal, I'd recommend playing with DDs that understand the concept that death = 0 DPS. Whm over healing greatly reduces the impact that AF3+2 legs have on their MP efficiency. Healing efficiently with them, with very low amounts of Refresh, does create a situation where Whm does not lose very much MP at all.
    (4)
    7/10/14

  10. #20
    Player Jile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grekumah View Post
    Enmity control is not only something that is crucial for a tank; it’s also something that the entire party needs to be concerned with. Due to this, we do not have any plans to make adjustments so that only tanks are able to completely control enmity. It’s for this same reason that we are not thinking about increasing the enmity cap on tanks.

    In a future version update we are planning to make enmity adjustments by adding methods to certain jobs to reduce a set amount of enmity. We’d like players to hang in there for a while until these adjustments are made.
    Grekumah, again thank you for taking the time to review/discuss this.

    When this game was new, damage approaching 1,000 was outstanding. In 2014 critical hits break 1,000! Yet, enmity caps are left in the olden days.

    There is a break in logic here Grekumah, the dev's need to appreciate that. If the dev's don't want to change enmity to where any one specific job has a higher amount of CAP then I propose the enmity CAP be removed completely. Without a cap there might be a chance that a long battle could be worked with more maintainable order - yes this still requires some holding back on the DD's part but it would allow someone like a THF to plant hate back on the tank when needed with far greater effect.
    (0)

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