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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    And you know what? I actually think there IS room for improvement in the job points system. I'm not actually totally with Protey on this. I'd like to see something like the +75% XP bonus Expertise Ring purchasable with login points, but for Capacity Points.
    Actually, I did say before that CP should have the same way of obtaining as EXP. For instance I suggested that there should be a crafted ring as well for CP just like the Resolution Ring.
    (1)

  2. #212
    Player FrankReynolds's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    2,592
    Character
    Mrkillface
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    I would never call anyone lazy for not having job points. I would call them lazy for demanding that they get to have them without doing anything. What the Hell does it matter how much somebody wants something? That is such an infuriating sense of entitlement to say "I want this! I don't want to put in any effort! Gimme!" You sound like a 5 year old.
    Gross exaggeration. No one said or demanded that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    I don't want to go around beating on mobs for nothing in return. I want to beat mobs for progression. When I get job points, I want it to mean something. I want it to mean that I put effort into obtaining something I am proud of. What the Hell is the point of even playing a video game if everything is just given to you effortlessly?
    Another gross exaggeration. No one asked for it to be given to them. And let's be honest here. Killing weak mobs is easy. The only achievement you are unlocking is longer log in time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    Again, you keep dodging the question. The topic here is on the importance of job points. As in, are job points becoming so important that you must have them to function in the game? What is the consequence of not having capped job points? The only consequence any of you guys can come up with is "I don't have capped job points!".
    If you're not sure what job points do, go look it up. I think we all know that they aren't going to continue adding more powerful items and stats to the job point system without increasing the difficulty of content. That would be incredibly dumb. You can stop pretending that they aren't. We also know that being a requirement from a technical standpoint has nothing to do with being able to beat the content. It's about actually getting into groups to do the content in the first place. Just because you can beat <XXX> on a butt naked white mage doesn't mean anyone is going to let you come.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    The consequence of not going through the effort to obtain a mythic weapon is that you don't have a mythic weapon.
    The consequence of not having Delve wins is that you don't have access to certain useful pieces of gear.
    The consequence of not getting to Sea is that you can't reforge artifact and Dynamis armor.

    The consequence of ALL this is the same: if you don't actually put in the effort to obtain a goal, you don't get the benefits of that goal.
    If you look back, you'll notice that they decreased the requirements for all those events because people were discouraged by them. Games that aren't fun don't make money. Insane difficulty and / or time sinks only hold the interest of a very small demographic. For many people, everything about FFXI fits that definition.

    In all honesty, they should be rewarding stuff like that with aesthetic items that are functionally the same, but with unique appearances and / or titles instead. It doesn't make sense to reward people who like a challenge with things that make everything less challenging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    You said you had a high paying job and several homes. I'd like those things. Can I have them while I just sit at home all day goofing off? It shouldn't make any difference to you if you still have them. And going by your logic... I deserve those things and it's unfair if I don't have them.
    Oddly enough, that's exactly how I got them. I learned how to manage servers, websites, networks etc. while playing video games late at night. Goofing off.

    There are base requirements in life that society deems necessary just like there are in the game. You don't need a car or a house or nice clothes to survive. You can go all "naked and afraid" and sleep in a hut made of pine needles. But nobody is going to want to hang out with you. That's where job points are headed. No one wants to play with the guy who is way behind in performance. Even if he is good enough to beat the content. Because, people don't want a group that can beat the content. They want a group that will beat the content and fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    What kind of game do you want? Something where you just log on and get everything because you don't want to put in any effort?
    Yes, because that's the only choice. There is absolutely no way that they could ever just lessen the requirements. That would be impossible. They have to either keep them exactly the same or remove the requirements entirely. there is no other choice. There can be no middle ground. If they even gave one more CAP per kill, the whole game would implode. /SMH

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    Why can't these people just do the 6000 other things that require minimal effort and can be soloed? Honest to God, you sound like a child bickering because mommy gave big brother a fancy new toy.
    Why can't you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    And you know what? I actually think there IS room for improvement in the job points system. I'm not actually totally with Protey on this. I'd like to see something like the +75% XP bonus Expertise Ring purchasable with login points, but for Capacity Points. I'd like to see them cut down the crazy evasion on those VT/IT mobs in the Gates zones so that you don't need a BRD/COR/GEO to roll (no matter how much accuracy I stack on my level 119 Monk I still can't get these things to check as anything but high evasion without adding on sushi... and even with sushi they're still high evasion if I don't stack accuracy gear). I'd actually love to see Double Capacity Points be a scheduled thing, say 7 to 10 days a month, instead of a random occurrence.
    I agree, but I'd rather see them become what they said they were going to be. A bonus that would accrue just by regularly playing the job. Not something that you had to specifically go do for hours and hours. You keep complaining about people wanting something for nothing, but in this case that's exactly what it was supposed to be. These weren't advertised as a challenge like a relic or something. They were advertised as something that would just happen as natural progression from playing the jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    But here's the thing about making things easier..... they're still too hard for some people who lack patience.
    Maybe, but I think there's a happy middle ground somewhere and this ain't it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    What I don't think is that job points are anything more than a "nice thing to have" like a mythic weapon or Tinhaspa or Jugo Kukri or Emet Harness.
    It literally took me 10 minutes to get my tinhaspa.

    Please see the countless threads / posts / discussions / websites complaining about certain gear / stats being "Required" by group leaders even though they aren't actually necessary to win the fight. It's about efficiency. Not just winning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    I have asked over and over again, but the question is endlessly dodged. If job points are a mindless grind you do not like, why do you just not hunt for job points? It seems the answer is "because then there is something I don't have!!!! That's not right!"
    Because having job points makes new content easier. Being able to do content more easily makes you more desirable to groups and other players. Being desirable gets you invited to events, parties, link shells etc. . All of these things make the game more enjoyable. Sometimes you have to do things you don't like to get things that you do like. The problem is when the part that you don't like outweighs the part you do. You can't make all the people happy all the time, but they can certainly do better than this.
    (1)

  3. #213
    Player Olor's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    And please can we stop ignoring that JP are way harder to get on some jobs than others... and ironically those are the jobs that the devs are "fixing" with job points rather than just fixing the jobs...

    Honestly there are so many straw men in here it's a wonder anyone can breathe. No one is suggesting we all just should log in and be handed max job points -

    What people are saying is this system was sold as a tiny little bonus you got for playing your fave jobs. Except, instead they are adding what should be core class abilities or class fixes to this horrendous grind. FFXI is already the most grindy game ever - we really didn't need this as a new required grind.

    And yeah yeah before people say "they won't be required" that's nonsense and we all know it. Christ we could all beat voidwatch without the minor bonuses for atmacites but group leaders still shouted for people that had maxed out certain ones.

    Honestly if it was just an extra 5 accuracy or something I wouldn't worry about it, but the difference between a BST pet with 2% extra haste or one with 30% haste is pretty huge. These aren't minor differences, especially for a job that needs all the help it can get.

    I don't work somewhere where I can grind job points all day and I have other hobbies I want to engage in after work. I came back to FFXI because I could have fun playing it casually. If it's going to turn into PLEASE GRIND 500 HOURS KILLING MOBS MINDLESSLY BEFORE YOU CAN JOIN CONTENT... ughhh no thanks.

    Anyway we should all be concerned about it because whenever devs put a system this grindy in place it is not because they are planning to add a lot of new content. But hey if you think it's worth paying a 15+ sub per month to kill the same mob over and over again with no variation or even actual content...
    (5)
    Last edited by Olor; 01-30-2015 at 03:14 AM.
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  4. #214
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    Dec 2013
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    And please can we stop ignoring that JP are way harder to get on some jobs than others
    Personally, when I shouted to make a Woh Gates CP party (which I did a lot during the event, and more to fill missing spots), I just shout (job) (anything) and just go with whatever we get. The party fills up very fast and we're out there within 5-10 minutes. Any time we ever do poorly (which is rare) it's because the players are undergeared or underskilled. I've had DRKs, multiple PUPs, no WHM, no BRD, whatever. I've also had RUNs and even a PLD (though the PLD was sub nin and dual wielding Burtgang and Excalibur). I never had a BST ask to join. The most common job, was, of course, THF, but there was also a lot of BLU.

    We just go with what we get, and usually get at least get 300k CP/hr during the event. The only time it was lower is when people keep AFKing or, like I said, the players are not good, not because of the jobs. It was also a good source of sparks and accolades, and a lot of Sacred Kindred Seals. I made pretty good gil just off the sparks.

    Granted, as a SMN, I am fulfilling the roles we're missing, but a lot of players can do that. If we're missing heals, I just play healer. We always have buffs (Hastega II/etc), so we're in decent shape there. Dancers can heal too (or anyone can sub dancer), we had PUPs bringing white mage automatons, lots of jobs can provide other useful buffs, etc. We had people subbing Corsair just to do Corsair's Roll, the same can be done with mage jobs for haste, hunter's roll for accuracy if you need it (sushi is fine), whatever.

    If you want to get CP, just make a party. The public shout parties might deny you, but that's just because the person making the party wants a specific setup. You can still make sure you get at least one person who can heal or buff, and there's multiple viable camps. I just finished pretty much all my job point categories on Summoner within 3 days during the event, missing only one category that I don't really care about (and already have enough stored to max the two new ones).

    And yeah, getting CP can kinda take a while, but it just depends on how much you want and how much time you want to spend. Like I said, I was getting 300k/hr (375k+ with corsair) with random party setups, which is around 10 job points per hour. That's about 6 hours to max one category. They definitely need to add more ways to get CP (new alluvion skirmish maybe) but Incursion and delve are pretty good too (my GEO has all gifts just off of doing delve). The system is a little grindy and takes a while, but you can finish it all up for a job (or the categories you care about) pretty quickly if you just push it during a CP event.
    (2)
    Last edited by Crevox; 01-30-2015 at 03:48 AM.

  5. #215
    Player Urteil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Bastok
    Posts
    909
    Character
    Urteil
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    DRK Lv 99
    Today I saw somebody leveling in Woh gates or Sih gates or some adoulin shit. The character names were Hyuran and Miqoten. It was at that point I realized that this game will be here forever.
    (2)

  6. #216
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    Mar 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankReynolds View Post
    If you're not sure what job points do, go look it up. I think we all know that they aren't going to continue adding more powerful items and stats to the job point system without increasing the difficulty of content. That would be incredibly dumb. You can stop pretending that they aren't. We also know that being a requirement from a technical standpoint has nothing to do with being able to beat the content. It's about actually getting into groups to do the content in the first place. Just because you can beat <XXX> on a butt naked white mage doesn't mean anyone is going to let you come.
    Then you won't be able to do the content. Make yourself better to the point where you are accepted. Or, /gasp, make your own party.


    Quote Originally Posted by FrankReynolds View Post
    If you look back, you'll notice that they decreased the requirements for all those events because people were discouraged by them. Games that aren't fun don't make money. Insane difficulty and / or time sinks only hold the interest of a very small demographic. For many people, everything about FFXI fits that definition.
    Precisely why people are trying to prevent people like you from making it less grindy. If you want a less grindy game, go play something else, there are many out there. Stop trying to make FFXI less like FFXI.


    Quote Originally Posted by FrankReynolds View Post
    There are base requirements in life that society deems necessary just like there are in the game. You don't need a car or a house or nice clothes to survive. You can go all "naked and afraid" and sleep in a hut made of pine needles. But nobody is going to want to hang out with you. That's where job points are headed. No one wants to play with the guy who is way behind in performance. Even if he is good enough to beat the content. Because, people don't want a group that can beat the content. They want a group that will beat the content and fast.
    Oh, you are psychic now. You've already foreseen all this new content that requires a certain level of JPs and that people won't get invited. Oh and mysteriously you are somehow unable to make your own parties.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrankReynolds View Post
    Yes, because that's the only choice. There is absolutely no way that they could ever just lessen the requirements. That would be impossible. They have to either keep them exactly the same or remove the requirements entirely. there is no other choice. There can be no middle ground. If they even gave one more CAP per kill, the whole game would implode. /SMH
    They should go the other way, give less CP per kill. And do away with all these double CP campaigns.


    Quote Originally Posted by FrankReynolds View Post
    I agree, but I'd rather see them become what they said they were going to be. A bonus that would accrue just by regularly playing the job. Not something that you had to specifically go do for hours and hours. You keep complaining about people wanting something for nothing, but in this case that's exactly what it was supposed to be. These weren't advertised as a challenge like a relic or something. They were advertised as something that would just happen as natural progression from playing the jobs.
    And one can still get them just by natural progression from playing the jobs. You don't have to go get them. Your argument is void.


    Quote Originally Posted by FrankReynolds View Post
    Please see the countless threads / posts / discussions / websites complaining about certain gear / stats being "Required" by group leaders even though they aren't actually necessary to win the fight. It's about efficiency. Not just winning.
    So go make your own party. Or are you incapable of making things happen for yourself?
    (1)

  7. #217
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    Dec 2013
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    This happened a lot in my parties:

    Player: hi can I come drg?
    Crevox: sure, of course
    Player: wow ok ty
    Player: hi i have brd, whm, thf
    Crevox: bring whichever you want
    Player: can i come drk?
    Crevox: sure, if that's what you want to bring, that's fine
    Player: ok ty
    (3)

  8. #218
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    What you people fail to realize is that the game is a journey, not an end point. When you make things easier to get, you make it so people don't want to play. Why? because there is nothing to do. That is why you have people only logging on for new content, which is rare. By having long term goals with grindy requirements, there is something to do. If some of you have it your way we'll be capped out on JPs/Gifts in no time and then what, SE will have to come out with new content. Now I'm pretty sure everyone does want new content, but without grindy requirements the new content will be beaten in short order and people will have nothing to do again. So SE has to come out with even more new content. However, that is not something that can be done in a short amount of time. Also, by coming out with new content over and over again in a relatively short time we have things like what happened with Skirmish gear. I know I was a bit peaved with spending 90 million gil on using stones then having to do it all over again with the +1 gear a short time later. So stop advocating for making things less grindy.
    (2)

  9. #219
    Player Stompa's Avatar
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    Aug 2012
    Location
    Remora
    Posts
    655
    Character
    Nebula
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    PUP Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Protey View Post
    What you people fail to realize is that the game is a journey, not an end point. When you make things easier to get, you make it so people don't want to play. Why? because there is nothing to do. That is why you have people only logging on for new content, which is rare. By having long term goals with grindy requirements, there is something to do. If some of you have it your way we'll be capped out on JPs/Gifts in no time and then what, SE will have to come out with new content. Now I'm pretty sure everyone does want new content, but without grindy requirements the new content will be beaten in short order and people will have nothing to do again. So SE has to come out with even more new content. However, that is not something that can be done in a short amount of time. Also, by coming out with new content over and over again in a relatively short time we have things like what happened with Skirmish gear. I know I was a bit peaved with spending 90 million gil on using stones then having to do it all over again with the +1 gear a short time later. So stop advocating for making things less grindy.
    I can vouch for the problem of making things too easy and how that results in people quitting the game. The LS I am on has always been your typical "new player LS" and we have always picked up any new player we find, and helped them with the stuff they need, things that other more snobby LS refer to in the derogatory term "no needy noobs." Our LS has been around forever and has always been happy to take them and their needyness lol.

    One thing I noticed in the years 2010~2014, and more noticeably after SoA arrived, was that we had a steady flow of new players joining all the time, and they leeched aby sandsweepers from lvl 30~99 plus capped merits, all in short time, and all while wearing their New-Adventurer pyjamas, often not using a single /ja, /ma or /ws for those whole 69 levels plus hundreds of merits.

    What happened was that they ended up standing in Adoulin on lvl 99 (capped merits) barely a fortnight after joining the game, and within a month they were saying stuff like "omg not more delve / WKR / skirmish" and "I'm so bored" and "I quit." The LS saw many of these new players join the game and reach endgame stage within a few weeks, and then quit the game in boredom a few weeks later.

    And the difference between new players arriving on the LS in 2004~2009, they took ages to get lvl 75 and they dreamed of one day having capped merits. And they didn't quit. Those players stayed on for years, not weeks. And made lots of friends on the journey too.

    And because the levelling process had given these new players the "journey" mindset which you mentioned, this made them more enthusiastic about other journeys in FFXI such as crafting/missions/quests/RME etc. This is very different to the new players our LS saw leeching Aby in their pyjamas and then saying how bored they were and quitting after a fortnight. So I think you are right, when the journey is taken away, people end up standing around at the destination and just kicking dust.

    Also if the double CAP events are going to be really really frequent, like more frequent than normal capacity times, they should just call those double-events "normal CAP" events and other times "half CAP" events lol. Next week, a special rare event, half capacity points!
    (3)
    Last edited by Stompa; 01-30-2015 at 09:57 AM.

  10. #220
    Player FrankReynolds's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,592
    Character
    Mrkillface
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Protey View Post
    Make yourself better to the point where you are accepted.
    Why do you think people are asking for lower requirements on the JP system? They want to be better...

    Quote Originally Posted by Protey View Post
    Precisely why people are trying to prevent people like you from making it less grindy. If you want a less grindy game, go play something else, there are many out there. Stop trying to make FFXI less like FFXI.
    I'll do what I want. I've been playing this game since the JP release and I'll keep trying to make it better for me and other people like me until they shut it down whether you like it or not. Deal with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Protey View Post
    Oh, you are psychic now. You've already foreseen all this new content that requires a certain level of JPs and that people won't get invited.
    No, I just possess adequate mental faculties to recognize a trend that hasn't changed in over ten years of FFXI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Protey View Post
    Oh and mysteriously you are somehow unable to make your own parties.
    Yes. People who don't have experience because they don't get invites have a much harder time actually leading groups. Leading a bunch of failed runs adn / or constantly asking someone else to lead your party quickly leads to people not joining your groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Protey View Post
    And one can still get them just by natural progression from playing the jobs. You don't have to go get them. Your argument is void.
    You don't have to get them either. You can waste time killing bunnies all day without the JP system. Your argument is void.

    Quote Originally Posted by Protey View Post
    So go make your own party. Or are you incapable of making things happen for yourself?
    I'm very capable. I'm just not a dick to people who aren't.
    (3)

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