The importance of job points

[detlef]

I pretty much agree with everything you said there detlef, even though I know people would probably consider me on one side of that extreme. Really though, I just don't think mob grinding is fun. It's not 2004 anymore. Game devs can do better than that. This is some lazy content.

Well don't get me wrong though, I actually like doing CP. I like the idea behind it and I think the process currently fills a void where you are focusing on improving gear instead of improving your character's traits and abilities directly. So I do enjoy this grind to some extent.

I just think that there should be more incentive to do it. To some extent there is because you're building up other useful currencies for other events as you farm CP. But I'm in favor of making double CP the permanent rate and I think accolade rates should be doubled permanently as well. Generally I believe JP are something that casuals should be able to cap out 1-2 of their favorite jobs in a straightforward manner if they put some effort into it. But it should allow really hardcore players to be able to cap out all their jobs if they desire. So we're not there yet but that's what I'm hoping to see. SE is going to keep expanding the system though, so I think everybody's going to have to accept some grinding though... I guarantee that as the system is expanded, it will become easier to get JP.

[Stompa]

As for people saying "oh well it used to be like this..."

I quit when it was final grindy XI... and came back when the game became fun. The fact that exping used to take a long time or w/e is completely irrelevant to this conversation, which is about a game that has evolved and has a lot of players who specifically returned when the game got rid of that soul sucking nonsense.

Frankly if you love grinding that much, level a new job without trusts or exp rings or books etc.

Grinding exp slowly in 2004 is relevant to the conversation, because people were complaining about grinding CAP slowly. My point was just that the core game was always that way, so if anything CAP represents a minor nod to the original game.

Your main job BST was the first job I ever took past lvl 30, I solo'd BST75 in 2004~2005, it was incredibly challenging to solo that job. You literally couldn't do it the same way today, because BST has Stout Servant now, and because SE changed the exp rate for EP/DC mobs so you are getting lots more exp for low end mobs. In the old days those mobs gave like 12xp lol, and jugpets died super fast without Stout Servant. So you had to charm and solo T/IT mobs all day.

You describe killing mobs on BST for jobpoints, as extremely boring. And one thing about BST in 2004 is that it wasn't boring - you were living on your nerves and having to charm mobs / kite / die (lol) constantly, gauge the pets' survival time, find replacement mobs, avoid links, avoid aggro. Mis-charms had to be dealt with by having back-up plans. You had to know all the maps, where all mobs popped, pinning areas, and soforth. You needed to play Bst with great skill just to get lvl 75. And it was stressful, and very very exciting. There was nothing boring about it. It was fun and exciting because it was difficult and required skill and nerves of steel lol. And you felt super super happy when you finally got 75.

In response to the "people quit because the game was hard back then," I'm sure that this is true. But I also know hundreds of people who quit at the start of Aby, when mules were leeching Fell Cleave parties and you saw mules rocking Maat's Cap after like a month of being AFK in FCs. I know a lot of people who were working on Maat's Cap on my BST Linkshell using the /bst charm update, and you could level all other jobs solo on /BST. A lot of other people had levelled jobs normally in parties for years, and were like 90% of the way to Maat's Cap. And then suddenly Aby FC arrive and mules are getting all jobs 99 while afk, lol. I know absolutely loads of people who quit FFXI at that point, because they felt all the effort they had put into levelling multiple jobs in xp parties for years, was being basically ridiculed. Obviously the hat isn't that great, but it was like a long-term project and a milestone symbol of how you had spent ages levelling different jobs.

I think long-term projects are very important, and the reason I like Jobpoints is they do offer something that I can work on over a long timescale. I really don't like stuff that you know you can finish in a few days. To me, short-term stuff is what is really boring, not killing millions of mobs for long-term goals. It was exciting when I saw my friend get Maat's Cap in 2009, using the /bst solo levelling system. It was boring when hundreds of mules got Maats Cap from Aby FC zombiemode afking. Stuff that is hard to get is fun, stuff that any mule can just leech is boring.

[Olor]

I played BST back then... there was some charm to it (har har har)

But as a person who has many interests in life, I simply did not have time for a game that punished me for wanting to play it.

It's unfortunate that anyone would advocate for the game to return to that. It's cheap, lazy game development.

And if you want something that is pointless and shiny and takes a long time, there is afterglow. That's the sort of thing that can be like "Maat's cap" - not basic job improvements (especially for jobs in dire need of them)

I'm sorry but basic character development should not be for masochists only.

Hell, I don't even complain that I can't have a mythic, especially now that some of the gap has closed between REM and dropped weapons.

I'm fine with content that's for people with more time/patience than me, but basic job traits/spells etc should not be locked behind miles of tedious grinding.

As I said earlier, if this was a couple accuracy or something I could deal with it.

Also I really don't care how fast others can get stuff, that's not my issue (as long as they aren't hacking or something) - I don't understand why it bothers people that other people can also get stuff, it really is a bizarre way of thinking about things. If people quit over others getting maat cap or w/e that's just nonsense.

Similarly I can't understand people here saying I GET 30 JP an HOUR! Complaining about others saying "hey, can we ease this up a bit so I can get some too?"

[PlumbGame]

I think some of the people jumping into this thread to give their 2cents now are completely degrading one side by claiming we are saying people want hand outs when they never said that yet people like FrankReynolds did say that.

The issue again, for me, since I have to repeat for the people not reading, and will probably have to repeat it again tomorrow, isn't if JPs are easy/hard to obtain. If they make it easier, all it does is allow me to get them faster than they already are. The issue has been people who are asking to make it easier because they want to do something like dyna vs CPing (which is funny because no matter how easy they make it you still have an issue in this case). Basically, people making false presumptions to validate the need to nerf something already so easy to gain.

Now there is legit reasoning to not design JPs around being required for end game etc, but there isn't valid reasoning at all in this thread so far as to the rate of gaining JPs.

[PlumbGame]

Show me where I implied anything of the sort. You won't. You can't. I didn't. You're lying... again.

All I ever said was that the JP system, as currently implemented doesn't fit in well with the current style of content and should be adjusted to be more in line with it. It also doesn't fit with the small and continually dwindling community.



You're not even coherent at this point.



If they're so realistic then prove them.

Can't tell if serious.

[PlumbGame]

I'm very sorry, my intention was never to insult you. Please accept my humble and sincere apology.

You shouldn't apologize, whether you mean it or not doesn't matter. They will still use it to try and validate their personal attacks.

[Protey]

It's unfortunate that anyone would advocate for the game to return to that. It's cheap, lazy game development.

No it's not, but I don't think you really even gave serious thought to this. If you had you would know that as we rose in levels they had to continuously balance jobs and decide when to give newer, more powerful spells, gear, and weapon skills. They had to balance so it wouldn't become too easy with our new found capabilities. They then also had to consider the mobs as well with the increasing levels so as to not be too easy and not too hard. They also had to come up with multiple camps and different mobs for people to be able to level up on. To say it's cheap, lazy game development is ignorance on your part.

I'm sorry but basic character development should not be for masochists only.

I'm fine with content that's for people with more time/patience than me, but basic job traits/spells etc should not be locked behind miles of tedious grinding.

Yes it should. It's ridiculous to think that one should be able to become super powerful, learning spells, weapons, etc all in one day (I so wish they would have made abyssea level 75 minimum). It should take a really long time, and the higher up you go, it should take even longer exponentially.

Hell, I don't even complain that I can't have a mythic, especially now that some of the gap has closed between REM and dropped weapons.

i think this mentality is part of your problem. anyone can have a mythic.

Also I really don't care how fast others can get stuff, that's not my issue (as long as they aren't hacking or something) - I don't understand why it bothers people that other people can also get stuff, it really is a bizarre way of thinking about things. If people quit over others getting maat cap or w/e that's just nonsense.

quitting is a bit much, but getting really upset is not. I know i would be very upset if tomorrow they started handing out mythics to players who have only done one day's of work to get it. It's called devaluing one's efforts.

Similarly I can't understand people here saying I GET 30 JP an HOUR! Complaining about others saying "hey, can we ease this up a bit so I can get some too?"

because we don't want the game to be easier than what it already is for us. easier for you = less enjoyment for us. And no, don't be ridiculous in thinking it has anything to do with watching you suffer. We don't care about you, everyone just cares about their own enjoyment. And yes, people do get enjoyment out of grinding.

[Meyi]

It's called devaluing one's efforts.

I personally disagree. It's still a huge accomplishment for any individual to achieve. I was one of the first BLMs on Bismarck to have Meteor (because I paid the huge price tag for it), but I'm happy that other BLMs can readily access the spell, too. It's a game, meant to be fun and to set challenges and goals for yourself and then meet them. Every person has a different comfort zone.

[I]t was slightly grindy and it reminded me of the old game. And that I personally liked the old game, and the grindyness and tiered stratified progression system.

I just wanted to say that I too was part of the BST to 75 bandwagon (who completely valued BST sub abilities, and also joined BST social LSes to hang out with the introverts of MMOs, haha!). And I used to love the grind of XP parties -- leveling up jobs was my favorite thing to do in the game, way back in the day.

But that was also when I was 15. I'm 26 now. I have a full time job, I have chores, I have critters to take care of, and I have people in my life requesting my time. I don't have as many hours to give the game as I used to.

Honestly I'm okay with Job Points. I wish I could personally achieve them faster (because I feel gimp and underpar without them), just like I wish I could have all the gear I want already. I take huge breaks (1-4 months at a time), and when I come back, all my friends have nice gear, while I'm still wearing inferior pieces. So that alone is the reason I wish I could achieve things faster. Otherwise, I enjoy the ride and appreciate the game for what it is: a way to pass time while recharging my inner battery, chatting with people I'm emotionally close to while partaking in a world that has been a significant part of my life.

I personally feel Job Points are a little slow. As someone else mentioned, I'd like to see double effect for them become permanent. Or, other ways to earn capacity points (again, I think they should be available for level syncs, or some kind of event would be fun too).

I don't know how people do 2 an hour, or 4 an hour, or 30 an hour. Well, maybe my LS can do 2 an hour, but I don't think I can do that solo. It certainly seems slow. And maybe part of the reason why it seems slow is that every upgrade means waiting even longer 'til the next.

What I'm tired of seeing is people getting their subligars in a pinch because some casual players asked for a reduction in time consumption. Nobody here asked for anything to be given to them. That's an immature conclusion. If you want your opinion to be heard, you have to listen first.

[Protey]

I don't know how people do 2 an hour, or 4 an hour, or 30 an hour. Well, maybe my LS can do 2 an hour, but I don't think I can do that solo. It certainly seems slow. And maybe part of the reason why it seems slow is that every upgrade means waiting even longer 'til the next.

as it should be.

What I'm tired of seeing is people getting their subligars in a pinch because some casual players asked for a reduction in time consumption. Nobody here asked for anything to be given to them. That's an immature conclusion. If you want your opinion to be heard, you have to listen first.

it's not an immature conclusion, your thinking about it is. I'm not going to go into every instance that has been mentioned in this thread, but here is one example: some people have been asking for more CP per kill. Those extra CP they would be getting, without having done anything to obtain it, that is having something given to them.

[detlef]

it's not an immature conclusion, your lack of thinking about it is. I'm not going to go into every instance that has been mentioned in this thread, but here is one example: some people have been asking for more CP per kill. Those extra CP they would be getting, without having done anything to obtain it, that is having something given to them.

You're pretty much arguing that SE shouldn't ever make things easier. Did you complain when they allowed us to enter Salvage and Assault solo? What about when they reduced most Phantom Gem fights to 10 merits? Or made Einherjar daily? Does it upset you when double CP campaign comes around because people are getting extra CP without having done anything to obtain it?