No, I want 3 rings at least.

[Protey]

Are you really making the no true Scotsman argument?

not familiar with that term. What I am saying is that Gamers want to obtain the things they get through difficult intellectual work. The non-Gamers want to obtain things without having to do much of anything for them. So it isn't so much of an argument, as a definition.

I suppose non-Gamers is a misnomer, as they are playing the game. Can just call them TV People i guess. Since they just want everything fed to them.

[Malphius]

"every WS" was a typo

That's not a typo. A typo is where you make a small grammar mistake because you hit the wrong key on a keyboard. You were just wrong. It's okay to admit. Nobody will judge you for being wrong. We all make mistakes. Where you will get judged is for trying to be a manipulative liar.

I think that is the point Afania. That is the difference between us and them.

Clearly and thankfully. Take a look at what the BG forums are saying about this thread. They make me look polite.

Those 2 comparisons are not the same. If I had asked for RDM to have Blue Magic Skill, which doesn't exist at all for RDM, then that would be a valid argument against me. However, I asked for a change in what is already there. Also, while they are additional capable shield points, one would still have to obtain them, so it wouldn't be free. How does this apply to the ring choice? You are already given one. The change is that you are able to drop the ring and choose another. The bringing into existence what wasn't there is a 2nd ring.

You're asking for ADDITIONAL new skill points to come into existence. You don't already have them, that's why you're asking for more. The change you asked for is for there to be more! So if I have a shield skill of 200 and I ask for more shield skill and now I have 250, that's 50 more than you previously had. That's not just a change, it's an increase. You measurably got 50 more shield skill points. 50 new points have been brought into existence. Regardless of how we agree on the semantics, you're asking for something for personal gain and you're asking for SE to give it to you. By your own argument, you are a childish, non-gamer, that hates a challenge that just wants something fed to them. You should probably go watch TV. Sounds ridiculous, right?

What I am saying is that Gamers want to obtain the things they get through difficult intellectual work.

Thats funny. I thought gamers wanted to waste time having fun. I guess we have different definitions of difficult intellectual work. I mean, you're not at the CERN Laboratory. You're not curing cancer. You're not solving world hunger. At best, the "difficult intellectual work" is a mildly annoying puzzle but FFXI doesn't even have those.

SE should just satisfy the entire player base here. Nobody that gets the option to get an additional ring is going to be mad. They'll be mad they "lost" on a message board but that will soon subside when they get to pick their shiny new ring for their other job class.

[Protey]

That's not a typo. A typo is where you make a small grammar mistake because you hit the wrong key on a keyboard. You were just wrong. It's okay to admit. Nobody will judge you for being wrong. We all make mistakes. Where you will get judged is for trying to be a manipulative liar.



Clearly and thankfully. Take a look at what the BG forums are saying about this thread. They make me look polite.



You're asking for ADDITIONAL new skill points to come into existence. You don't already have them, that's why you're asking for more. The change you asked for is for there to be more! So if I have a shield skill of 200 and I ask for more shield skill and now I have 250, that's 50 more than you previously had. That's not just a change, it's an increase. You measurably got 50 more shield skill points. 50 new points have been brought into existence. Regardless of how we agree on the semantics, you're asking for something for personal gain and you're asking for SE to give it to you. By your own argument, you are a childish, non-gamer, that hates a challenge that just wants something fed to them. You should probably go watch TV. Sounds ridiculous, right?



Thats funny. I thought gamers wanted to waste time having fun. I guess we have different definitions of difficult intellectual work. I mean, you're not at the CERN Laboratory. You're not curing cancer. You're not solving world hunger. At best, the "difficult intellectual work" is a mildly annoying puzzle but FFXI doesn't even have those.

SE should just satisfy the entire player base here. Nobody that gets the option to get an additional ring is going to be mad. They'll be mad they "lost" on a message board but that will soon subside when they get to pick their shiny new ring for their other job class.

by that reasoning, any change is an addition. stop twisting things around.

The difficult intellectual work is the strategic decision making in a game. wtf does CERN or curing lung cancer have to do with this. you really need to work on your logical argumentation.

what we get mad about is people like you who want things just given to them and are attempting to change the game in a way that will make it less enjoyable for those of us that aren't like you.

and you still haven't fulfilled your promise to answer my question.

[Olor]

It's a hard choice, absolutely. I think it's okay we're asked to make the choice though. Most people will end up picking one of a handful of those rings. A few die hards will pick something else more beneficial to one of the game's more unloved jobs. Or something that benefits their playstyle specifically (crafters with the crafting ring, pet players with the pet ring)

Most people will pick the WS/regain ring since it benefits the most competitive slot, which is DD

Maybe when they see only 1 in a 500 players picks the pet ring they will see that those jobs need some help

On the bright side the rewards are so good here we are talking about them

I want them all... and now I actually feel like it's worth doing the missions.

I guess I am on the fence, only if because several of these rings are so powerful it will make it harder for people who want to play a job that can benefit from it to play the job without it. Like a melee player without the regain WS ring... that's a pretty substantial boost to give up.

I am trying to convince myself to get the pet one. It's hard though!

[Malphius]

by that reasoning, any change is an addition. stop twisting things around.

It's pretty obvious on its face. Any change that results in positive and measurable growth is an addition. If they lowered shield skill and it went from 200 to 150 that would be a reduction. You are clearly incorrect that any change is an addition. Nothing has been twisted.

The difficult intellectual work is the strategic decision making in a game. wtf does CERN or curing lung cancer have to do with this. you really need to work on your logical argumentation.

This game isn't hard. Sorry. Saying video games are difficult intellectual work is insulting to people that actually perform difficult intellectual work such as the fields I mentioned.

what we get mad about is people like you who want things just given to them and are attempting to change the game in a way that will make it less enjoyable for those of us that aren't like you.

Couldn't care less how mad you are at me. I never asked for it for free (once again). I would be perfectly fine with earning it the same way you would be your shield skill points. I'm finding it exceptionally hard to believe that anyone would find the game less enjoyable with more equipment choices. The game is build around get better gear > get better gear > get better gear.

To answer your question no I would not be asking to select all 3 rings just like i'm not asking to select all 12 rings. I'm asking to select 3 rings, which is 1/4 the rewards. Selecting 1 of 3 rings btw was 1/3 the rewards. You were selecting a higher % of reward content.

[Protey]

It's pretty obvious on its face. Any change that results in positive and measurable growth is an addition. If they lowered shield skill and it went from 200 to 150 that would be a reduction. You are clearly incorrect that any change is an addition. Nothing has been twisted.



This game isn't hard. Sorry. Saying video games are difficult intellectual work is insulting to people that actually perform difficult intellectual work such as the fields I mentioned.



Couldn't care less how mad you are at me. I never asked for it for free (once again). I would be perfectly fine with earning it the same way you would be your shield skill points. I'm finding it exceptionally hard to believe that anyone would find the game less enjoyable with more equipment choices. The game is build around get better gear > get better gear > get better gear.

To answer your question no I would not be asking to select all 3 rings just like i'm not asking to select all 12 rings. I'm asking to select 3 rings, which is 1/4 the rewards. Selecting 1 of 3 rings btw was 1/3 the rewards. You were selecting a higher % of reward content.

it is twisting, Addition does not necessarily mean bringing into existence. Adding skill to what was already there is not bringing into existence something that wasn't there before. it is changing what was already there. And if you look at why I put it there from the other thread, it was because RDM should have higher shield skill than a WHM. RDM is a melee class (note I did not say heavy DD), as well as other classes. Whereas WHM is not. Also, putting RDM at C- shield skill will not provide any significant gain.

I never said this game is hard. I don't know if you are arguing the way you are because you're oblivious or what. It is like you never took an argumentation logic class. Saying video games are difficult intellectual work is not insulting to those people. Obviously I was referring to making difficult strategic decisions IN A GAME. You keep on taking what is said and view it with some warped point of view, state that warped point of view as if it was a fact, and then judge others against that. It's like you're a liberal.


What does getting % of reward content come from? It has always been one choice out of all. You just arbitrarily said "o, that just happens to be such and such % of the whole, so I will say I should have the same % for this new reward!" You are the one not being consistent.

[Demonjustin]

not familiar with that term.

No True Scotsman is a logical fallacy in which someone argues that someone doesn't fit into a certain group, as any true member of said group would share a specific trait. In this case, the title of "gamer" is the one we're using and what was said is basically... "no true gamer would want more than one ring as true gamers get enjoyment at the difficulty of games by the choices we are forced to make". This is a very clear example of a NTS argument because you're using one trait you believe defines a gamer to determine if anyone else is or isn't a "true" gamer. Either way, just thought I'd share so ya knew.

[Malphius]

Addition does not necessarily mean bringing into existence. Adding skill to what was already there is not bringing into existence something that wasn't there before.

If it didn't exist before hand, then it was brought into existence. If you didn't have it before, then where did it come from? Did you transfer shield skill points from somewhere else? No? Then it was brought into existence.

if you look at why I put it there from the other thread, it was because RDM should have higher shield skill than a WHM.

Says you. RDM is a jack of all traits but primarily a support job (Buffs/Enfeebles). Your request has as much merit as the people asking for extra rings.

I never said this game is hard.

You're right, you said it was "difficult" which is a synonym for hard. It means the same thing. You stated that the game is Intellectually difficult. Which I believe for you, it is.

It is like you never took an argumentation logic class.

I must have missed "argumentation logic class" 101 in college.

You keep on taking what is said and view it with some warped point of view, state that warped point of view as if it was a fact, and then judge others against that.

It's not my fault you don't know what you're saying.

It's like you're a liberal.

How should I even respond to this? It's like you're actually the one that's a child and you're losing your argument so you resort to wild personal attacks that you pull from thin air.

What does getting % of reward content come from? It has always been one choice out of all. You just arbitrarily said "o, that just happens to be such and such % of the whole, so I will say I should have the same % for this new reward!" You are the one not being consistent.

Because you think it's just too much. Obviously we have to base the future on the past like you and others keep saying. Never mind that this situation already isn't the same as before so those rules can go out the window. When working with different amounts of items you have to break it down into % to make accurate comparisons. It's not arbitrary. Obtaining 3/12 rings still keeps the exclusivity of the rewards. You still can't have the other 9.

You are the one not being consistent.

Because I don't care how we get them. Just that we can.

[Zekander]

I'm not sure why everyone wants the Karieyh ring (regain ring), to me it doesn't look all that great. The regain is only +5, which is 0.5% if you are still using the old parlance, so that is really actually quite weak, and suffers from a huge flaw. That flaw being that it does not scale with haste, the competition for the ring slot are most notably Rajas ring and Epona's ring. Rajas ring mostly for the Store TP trait, which does scale with haste, i.e. the more haste you have the more tp over time you will gain from Store TP. I can't do the math, but I'm willing to bet that Store TP +5 will get you more TP over time in high haste situations then Regain +5 will. And obviously the double/triple attack from Epona's ring also scales with haste, the faster you swing the more procs you will get in a certain period of time. So the only use I can see for the regain is for getting max tp before a fight, assuming you don't have access to another form of regain (meditate, SCH, COR, Opo opo necklace, etc.), but that would be a very very long wait, 10 minutes just to reach 1000 tp...

Really the best stat on that ring is the WS damage, meaning it would be a WS swap ring thereby making the Regain stat pointless. And it doesn't seem like 3% is all that much. 3% of a 10k WS is only 300 damage, that's not a whole lot, yes it will probably be more then you'd get from another ring, but probably not by much.

[Protey]

If it didn't exist before hand, then it was brought into existence. If you didn't have it before, then where did it come from? Did you transfer shield skill points from somewhere else? No? Then it was brought into existence.

RDM already has shield skill. It is not brought into existence, it is already there. I already said the example of RDM having shield skill (already exists) vs RDM having blue magic skill (does not already exist).

You're right, you said it was "difficult" which is a synonym for hard. It means the same thing. You stated that the game is Intellectually difficult. Which I believe for you, it is.

I think this conversation is intellectually difficult for you as you can't even pay attention to what was said. I said "Gamers want to obtain the things they get through difficult intellectual work"; that is not the same as saying "This game is difficult/hard". Another instance of you taking something that was said and twisting it with your warped point of view.

I must have missed "argumentation logic class" 101 in college.

Obviously.

It's not my fault I don't know what I'm saying.

FTFY.

How should I even respond to this? It's like you're actually the one that's a child and you're losing your argument so you resort to wild personal attacks that you pull from thin air.

Made an observation to how you argue. Then correlated that with the only people I know of that argue like that. You may or may not be one, which is why I didn't say you were one, just it seems like you are.

Because you think it's just too much. Obviously we have to base the future on the past like you and others keep saying. Never mind that this situation already isn't the same as before so those rules can go out the window. When working with different amounts of items you have to break it down into % to make accurate comparisons. It's not arbitrary. Obtaining 3/12 rings still keeps the exclusivity of the rewards. You still can't have the other 9.

How is the situation different so that the rules go out the window? There was a storyline. There is a reward you get to choose from for completing that storyline. If you say it is because there is more choices.... CoP had 1 of 3 choices. Zilart had 1 of 5 choices. Aht Urhgan had 1 of 3 choices. What is this rule that requires that when you work with different amounts of items you have to break it down into % to make comparisons? When regardless of the amount of items, you always only get to choose one, there is no such rule. Doesn't matter if you are comparing 1 out of 3 to 1 out of 100 to 1 out of a google. you still only get to choose 1.

Because I don't care how we get them. Just that we can.

and this sums up the whole problem. You don't care how you obtain stuff. Those of us arguing against you do.

edit: Also, those of us arguing against you think that just because something exists doesn't mean necessarily that you have a right to it. We that are arguing against you believe that a game should require difficult decision making (and no I don't mean some huge intellectual feat like figuring out how to prevent quantum tunneling effects when working with micro-circuitry, I'm referring to strategic game decisions). Why? It makes a game more fun that way.... at least for us that are arguing against you.