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  1. #11
    Player Hoshi's Avatar
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    What situation exists where COR can't DD? I have yet to encounter content where I'm unable to contribute dmg wise. The only content I could see where COR doesn't contribute much dmg is a zerg fight. COR gets destroyed on the parse in a zerg.
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  2. #12
    Player Afania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    It's not that I don't get that point it's that I'm saying the world isn't over cors don't need a haste roll to have a pt slot. Yeah is just buffing boring? Sure welcome to every buffing job.

    Want to be less bored DD some. You don't have to top parses to contribute especially when you are already contributing without doing any
    I wasn't asking for a haste roll though, I was asking for higher skill rating for higher lv content, which is what this discussion's about. I didn't say a thing about buffing is boring(I've COR/WHM for years in endgame when it's necessary with 0 complain). You sure enjoy putting words in other ppl's mouth.

    I wasn't asking to top the parse either, but in certain situations, the gap between COR and a real DD is simply too great to worth a pt spot. Especially when you can just get a mule and buff outside of BC.

    I don't understand, we're not asking to top the parse, we're not asking for haste roll, we're only asking for a skill buff to close the gap with other light armor DDs, I'm not asking for an A+ skill, just A- or even B+ in marksmanship is good enough IMO.

    I'm well aware that you can contribute without having to top the parse, that doesn't mean there are no better alternative for this particular pt spot. In most of the situations that I know of, GEO is a better alternative than COR, and having COR buff outside of BC before enter is also a better alternative. IMO that needs a fix, and the best way to fix it is to increase the output unless SE can give COR game changing unique buffs.

    Is asking for a skill buff for a light armor job affect the game balance THAT much? If you insist COR is a buff only job, fine. Where's the mage/support gears for this job? Compare with GEO and BRD, we're just not as effective for support.

    Personally, if I have a choice to invite all the best GEO BRD COR SAM, I see myself inviting Idris GEO or 4 song BRD with Ghorn over mythic COR in most of the endgame setup. I'd get Koga SAM for any extra spot and have the SAM engage different target. Unless I'm doing skirmish, I see very little reason to use a COR over another equally geared SAM GEO BRD.....buff mule outside of BC doesn't count.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoshi View Post
    What situation exists where COR can't DD? I have yet to encounter content where I'm unable to contribute dmg wise. The only content I could see where COR doesn't contribute much dmg is a zerg fight. COR gets destroyed on the parse in a zerg.
    The situation that COR may not be effective is mostly in higher lv content....certain VD battle field and higher lv incursion megaboss. Melee accuracy is noticeably lower , leaden salute/wildfire gets resist alot, last stand won't land very well without prelude(if we get melee acc song we can't get prelude).

    In situation like this, it's probably better to change job to something else. Although I haven't done endgame since 1h WS update, so I'm not sure if stronger 1h WS fixed this issue or not.
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    Last edited by Afania; 02-22-2015 at 07:21 AM.

  3. #13
    Player Hoshi's Avatar
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    Incursion 133 is no problem on COR. Yes elemental ws get resisted but if all else fails evis is great. Furthermore coming /dnc you give the party a huge boost with steps and haste samba. For melee VD fights I haven't had trouble on COR. I agree that in situations where you have to shoot things get a bit unpleasant. Arks are problematic at any level because COR can't effectively deal damage while mitigating hate like a RNG and on the VD version r acc does suffer a bit.
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  4. #14
    Player Afania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoshi View Post
    Incursion 133 is no problem on COR. Yes elemental ws get resisted but if all else fails evis is great. Furthermore coming /dnc you give the party a huge boost with steps and haste samba. For melee VD fights I haven't had trouble on COR. I agree that in situations where you have to shoot things get a bit unpleasant. Arks are problematic at any level because COR can't effectively deal damage while mitigating hate like a RNG and on the VD version r acc does suffer a bit.

    /DNC barely make up the dmg gap since BRD and GEO can do the same. Haste samba also isn't a "huge boost" IMO. If you're limiting your party size in an incursion pt, then BRD and GEO is usually a more popular choice in incursion, you may as well just have them /DNC. Before I quit, the popular low man incursion setup on my server was usually SAM THF WHM BRD GEO stunner. I don't see how changing any of the job in the above setup to COR can lead to better performance, feel free to tell me I'm wrong though.
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  5. #15
    Player Hoshi's Avatar
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    Perhaps it depends on the situation. We spam lv 133 gramk runs only. We average 10 min per run. Our setup is geo, brd, cor, thfx2, whm in pt1 and geox3, rdmx2, sch for pt 2 (and really everything but the 2 stunners and the 1 sleeper is negligible in that pt). With haste samba + haste 2, the bard is able to drop 1 march in favor of a different buff. Evasion and defense down steps are a huge buff. Also considering the amount of acc gear available to a cor if the geo is coming close to you on the parse you're doing something very wrong. Yes the bard is going to outparse you since they have access to rudra's which is broken (plus the way aftermath works a bard benefits far more from am3 than a melee cor does), but the bard shouldn't outparse the cor by much. Cor buffs are unique and indispensable. We favor allies and sam currently but if the adherents have high mdb switch to fighters and sam.
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  6. #16
    Player Afania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoshi View Post
    Yes the bard is going to outparse you since they have access to rudra's which is broken (plus the way aftermath works a bard benefits far more from am3 than a melee cor does), but the bard shouldn't outparse the cor by much. Cor buffs are unique and indispensable. We favor allies and sam currently but if the adherents have high mdb switch to fighters and sam.
    I haven't done endgame since 1h WS update, if what you said about rudra is true then IMO it's full of wrong in terms of game balance lol. I know COR buffs are unique, but unique is not the same as useful. Certain roll such as fighter is also fairly useless if you go with mythic DD.

    How much SC dmg can your pt do compare with white damage? And how much dmg you do on COR v.s your main DD in the pt?

    Even if half of your pt dmg came from SC, allies roll is only 17.5% increase in total dmg. No.11= 35%, 35%/2= 17.5%.

    According to the spreading sheet I've checked long time ago, avg SAM roll is about 5% increase to SAM.

    So that makes it 22.5% increase per DD IF SC dmg is equal to half of white dmg. If SC dmg is lower than half of white dmg, or if you didn't hit a No.11 on allies roll, it's even less dmg increase per DD. In a situation that you have 2 DD in the pt, that's 45% increase in dmg by sacrificing 1 pt spot. A COR needs to do more than 55% of another DD's dmg with evi to worth a spot, without access to melee mythic AM3 when THF SAM both has, AND less multi attack in TP set thanks to lower acc. I don't have parse data with buffed evi, so feel free to prove me wrong if you can provide parse data. I just find it incredibly hard to more than 55% of SAM and THF using evi + Sabebus when SAMs and THFs are rocking mythic AM3 and superior WS PLUS higher skill lv. 55% is also the bare minimum of dmg required. If you can't get a good roll or if the SC dmg isn't doing much, COR needs to do a lot more than 55% of another DD.
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    Last edited by Afania; 02-22-2015 at 04:16 PM.

  7. #17
    Player Hoshi's Avatar
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    You've left out a few factors: please add in the -13% def from box step, the -24 evasion from stutter step, the extra madrigal or minuet from haste samba, the extra -5% def from light shot, and the extra damage gained from a well placed random deal. Also on unresisted skillchains, I suspect that more than half of your damage comes from skillchain. Leaden Salute -> Rudra's -> Rudra's will net you darkness and double darkness. LS is meh but the first Rudra's will do somewhere between 12k and 20k dmg plus the darkness, and the second Rudra's will do similar to the first with double darkness. I'm not a thf in incursion so I really can't tell you what their exact numbers look like but double darkness skillchain tears the heck out of stuff as long as there's no MDB adherent.
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  8. #18
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    You give very nice strong buffs and deal a little dmg if you want but wont be able to compete with real DDs I fail to see why this is a problem or why you'd even compare yourself to other DDs. And have you seen what you can do with leaden salute? It's the strongest magical ws and if you buff/debuff for them good magical ws are beastly and make these rudra's seem not that OP
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  9. #19
    Player Afania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoshi View Post
    You've left out a few factors: please add in the -13% def from box step, the -24 evasion from stutter step, the extra madrigal or minuet from haste samba, the extra -5% def from light shot, and the extra damage gained from a well placed random deal. Also on unresisted skillchains, I suspect that more than half of your damage comes from skillchain. Leaden Salute -> Rudra's -> Rudra's will net you darkness and double darkness. LS is meh but the first Rudra's will do somewhere between 12k and 20k dmg plus the darkness, and the second Rudra's will do similar to the first with double darkness. I'm not a thf in incursion so I really can't tell you what their exact numbers look like but double darkness skillchain tears the heck out of stuff as long as there's no MDB adherent.
    As previously mentioned, the advantage of box step isn't COR only, BRD/DNC or GEO/DNC can do the same, the only difference being(probably) they have lower melee acc, thus they reach cap slower. It is not necessary to invite a COR just for steps.

    As for the SC dmg part, I haven't seen any parse data, so no comment on whether it's 50% of pt dmg or not. THFs also has white dmg, there's also a risk of missed stun causing amnesia, causing SC dmg goes lower in a parse. I know how strong Rudra double darks are, I even asked for a nerf on the forum because it's too OP. I just want to confirm whether SC dmg worth 50% in an incursion pt or not.

    Btw, leaden salute>rudra>rudra double dark is barely a COR only advantage, it's probably not even a good idea to use it in incursion as a SC opener. Leaden salute is gravitation, which can create dark with distortion. Evisceration is also gravitation, so Evis>rudra>rudra should have the same result with better dmg, and BRD can do it too. In the end, you can probably skip COR completely and replace it with another DD or just don't bring it, and it won't make too much difference.


    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    You give very nice strong buffs and deal a little dmg if you want but wont be able to compete with real DDs I fail to see why this is a problem or why you'd even compare yourself to other DDs. And have you seen what you can do with leaden salute? It's the strongest magical ws and if you buff/debuff for them good magical ws are beastly and make these rudra's seem not that OP
    I think you still missed the point completely. We're not talking about the situation that leaden salute shines, we're talking about a situation that we'd need accuracy and leaden salute doesn't work. I'm not sure why'd you keep bringing leaden salute up in this discussion.

    The reason why I sound like COR is competing with another DD is because in FFXI, every single job is competing with another job for a pt spot. That's why certain job gets invite and some jobs don't. If a job is a DD, then you're comparing the dmg. If the job is not DD, then you're comparing the utility. In the case of COR, none of the buffs are game changing enough to a point that you must invite them, and most of the useful ones are there to improve pt damage. If you're not comparing the extra dmg of this job brings, how else can you convince everyone that COR is worth bringing over another job, such as SAM, THF, WHM, BRD and GEO? I'm sure someone as smart as you can understand the simple fact that every job is competing with another job for a pt spot in an event.

    We're asking the job to be able to contribute as much as another job so we don't need to go home and job change to a GEO, SAM, THF or BRD. My experience in incursion was that GEO, SAM, THF, BRD and WHM is slightly more useful than a COR, if BRD and GEO /DNC and play the job right that is. Just because some pt brings COR to incursion, doesn't mean there are no better alternatives.

    Btw, I've been defending for COR's usefulness actively on AH/BG for years, I'm not just some random job hater trying to make the job look bad. I just feel the recent rudra buff, skill buff for other jobs and GEO buff made COR in a worse position than how it used to be.

    Either way, I'm done. If you guys insist that COR roll is so game changing then go ahead and invite them to incursion or VD battle field. I know I'm probably gonna get an Idris GEO with proper melee set over an equally geared COR for those situations.
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    Last edited by Afania; 02-22-2015 at 08:12 PM.

  10. #20
    Player Hoshi's Avatar
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    Speaking as an idris geo, you're going to be very disappointed with your accuracy rate in a 133 incursion. Idris is OP but expecting the geo to contribute much to the parse is nuts. Although maybe with the new alluvion yorcia skirmish gear you can eke out a little more accuracy (at least replace the bokwus acc path pieces) but you will need a substantial acc boost to even get 70% acc.
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    Last edited by Hoshi; 02-23-2015 at 02:51 AM.

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