General complaint thread

[Zekander]

Since my other thread got derailed into essentially this, feel free to post any grievances you may have about Red Mage here.

Personally I would like to see RDM get an A- sword skill if for no other reason then for the style of the job. RDM is supposed to be a mage that wields a sword, but this is rarely the case. With only a B rank in sword there is no way to argue its use for anything other then soloing and even then nuking is often more effective.

SE please do not leave us out of the skill updates, this change would in no way make the job more powerful, simply more versatile.

[Draylo]

sry that would make them too overpowered

[Malthar]

sry that would make them too overpowered

Yep, we would have nothing but 18 man red mage parties.

[Protey]

Blu is a hybrid with a focus on DPS, Rdm is a hybrid with a focus on support, you actually see shouts for Rdms, not Blus. Blu is not OP.

That said, I have 0 qualms about increasing Rdms melee ability I absolutely think every job should have an A+ in it's core skills, and Sword is definitely one for Rdm. And I wish they'd buff Enspell II's, as well, they're rather silly as they are.

I just took objection to calling Blu OP, though we've admittedly gotten a lot of Dev love lately (which I am very grateful for), we're still behind the leading jobs that share our role in a party, though we are admittedly now above the average, and many jobs could use more buffs than we could now, but we're still no Sam or Mnk or Rng, or even really Thf (though obviously not for DD reasons) in the "DD role" in terms of desirability, but we're now ahead or tied with most of the remaining DDs.

The only reason Rdms are shouted for more than Blus, honestly, is because the support role in general is rarer than DD, they're still behind Brd and Whm, in terms of support desirability.

so how is BLU overpowered? let's take a look:

winds of promyvion (erasega) - other jobs have to either use stratagems or be a mythic whm
barrier tusk - allows them to go 15% past the PDT cap.... hmmm where have i heard that before, o PLD and RUN mythics
subduction - gives aoe potent gravity, recast of 5 seconds, and does quite a bit of damage... RDM gravity 2 is single target, recast of 75 seconds, and does no damage
occultation - gives shadows based on blu skill... up to what, 10 shadows? RDM - 2
cocoon - 50% defense boost. nearest anything comes to this is defender from WAR
also has among many other possibilities: stun with very low recast time, incredibly long lasting terror, aoe sleep, and can cast aoe haste2 type spell that lasts about 8? minutes once every 10 minutes

there is more to being OP than just raw damage. O, and don't even try and use the argument that they are limited to the spells they can set. With assimilation and blue magic point bonus from JPs they can set all of the OP spells they need and then some.

[mattkoko]

While is is true all of the spells you mentioned are great spells. and you say don't use set points as an excuse, but that is a big factor. You have to remember that every single job other then blu has native job traits. In order for blu to get job traits, they need a certain spell combination. Sometimes this means setting useless spells just to get a job trait.

Also, spells like winds of promy is a great spell, but we cannot select party members. The party needs to be with in the blu's vicinity. And the mp cost on winds of promy is a pretty decent amount (89mp) where sch and /sch can cast it for 18 mp or less with light arts and those jobs that have a native conserve mp trait (a trait where we need a special spell combination to even have access to and by spells we may not even have any use for other then that trait).

Occultation is a great spell but it costs a crap tone of mp (138mp to be exact). The only place this really got its chance to shine is in abyssea with a 10-15mp tic refresh.

Barrier tusk lasts 60 seconds. Although it is nice, and sounds great on paper, it is situational at best.

Cocoon is amazing. not going to sugar coat that at all.

Subduction is cheap to cast and it is a nice spell but it costs 6 set points. A lot of these so called overpowered spells are great spells. I'm not going to lie. But even with assimilation and additional set points through JP, you still need to make a lot of sacrifices in order to get the proper job traits for whatever event along with the spells you want.

Edit: I forgot to mention blu's version of stun. Although it is a great stun, it is not as reliable as the actual stun spell. The actual stun spell is a lot less likely to be resisted, unless that mob has a natural resistance to stun. In other words, if a party needs a reliable stunner, they most likely will not turn to blu.

Also, it is true that diffusion can let you cast AOE haste II. Can also cast AOE refresh. Duration of erratic flutter is 5 minutes however (just over 6 minutes if you fully merit diffusion). Not 8. Rdm can recast haste II on them self and other party members full time (assuming that rdm is reliable and reapplies). Main point is blu is not invited to parties because they can cast AoE haste II. If people want haste II, they will go to a job that can reapply it on other party members full time.

With this said, I am not saying blu is a bad job. I love blu and it is a lot of fun and it is a great job to play. But it is no where close to being overpowered as you say. I don't know what your gripe is with the job, but just you saying that set points is not a factor when it absolutely is, as well as saying that erratic flutter lasts for 8 minutes when it lasts for 5 minutes tells me how little you know about the job. So before you talk about how OP blu is, level it to 99. Because for every great thing blu can do, a lot of sacrifice has to be made to get the desired traits along with the dmg output. You mentioned a lot of great defensive spells, but blu does not get invited to events because they can get 10 blink shadows, 15% past PDT cap, and AOE haste II every 10 minutes. They get invited to parties for dmg output (and occasionally absolute terror. Hell before blu got their physical spells boosted, AT was one of the only reasons they were invited to some of the delves). Which means we have to sacrifice most, if not all of our defensive spells to keep up with the other DDs. And we still wont keep up with the likes of mnk and sam.

RDM on the other hand is asked to parties more for their support role. RDMs don't get parties because they deal awesome dmg with their almighty sword skills. And even at A+ sword skill, you still wont get parties for your almighty sword skills. You want to know why? Because, rdm is mainly looked toward for support. So lets say the rdm runs in to poke the mob with a sword. Not only is that rdm just feeding tp, but putting them self in danger to get killed. It's hard to give support to your party members if your dead.

So you can go ahead and compare rdm to blu all you want, but they are used in parties for entirely different reasons. If you want to compare rdm to other jobs as far as balance goes, Compare them to the likes of brd, cor, and geo, because that is the category they fall into. As I said in the other thread, I am not against rdm getting a boost in their enspells or even A+ sword skills. If it makes them happy, I am all for it. But it is quite obvious you don't know much about blu, and if you did play blu, you would not be saying it is OP.

[Protey]

...as well as saying that erratic flutter lasts for 8 minutes when it lasts for 5 minutes tells me how little you know about the job...

First off, AoE erratic flutter can last a lot longer than 5 minutes. Probably because of that thing called merits.... but you wouldn't know about that Mr. IthinkIknoweverythingaboutBLUbutdon't.

So you can go ahead and compare rdm to blu all you want, but they are used in parties for entirely different reasons. If you want to compare rdm to other jobs as far as balance goes, Compare them to the likes of brd, cor, and geo, because that is the category they fall into. As I said in the other thread, I am not against rdm getting a boost in their enspells or even A+ sword skills. If it makes them happy, I am all for it. But it is quite obvious you don't know much about blu, and if you did play blu, you would not be saying it is OP

you are under the impression that this is all about being invited to parties.... it's not. Nowhere in my post did I mention invites to parties. Which was kind of obvious from the solo spells I mentioned. I can possibly see where you are confused as I did mention AoE haste2 as a possibility and I quoted Selindrile who mentioned RDMs shouted for more than BLUs, but that is a quote and not something I wrote.

RDM on the other hand is asked to parties more for their support role. RDMs don't get parties because they deal awesome dmg with their almighty sword skills. And even at A+ sword skill, you still wont get parties for your almighty sword skills. You want to know why? Because, rdm is mainly looked toward for support. So lets say the rdm runs in to poke the mob with a sword. Not only is that rdm just feeding tp, but putting them self in danger to get killed. It's hard to give support to your party members if your dead..

I'm going to throw your own words right back at you: go level RDM to 99 as it is quite obvious you don't know much about RDM. I have melee'd on RDM in delve. On Wopket I did 80% damage of the MNK.... I would hardly call that "just feeding TP". And as to your comment about a RDM putting themselves in danger and getting killed..... you do know that RDM is one of the most capable jobs at surviving? O wait, you don't, cuz you don't play RDM.

[mattkoko]

First off, AoE erratic flutter can last a lot longer than 5 minutes. Probably because of that thing called merits.... but you wouldn't know about that Mr. IthinkIknoweverythingaboutBLUbutdon't.



you are under the impression that this is all about being invited to parties.... it's not. Nowhere in my post did I mention invites to parties. Which was kind of obvious from the solo spells I mentioned. I can possibly see where you are confused as I did mention AoE haste2 as a possibility and I quoted Selindrile who mentioned RDMs shouted for more than BLUs, but that is a quote and not something I wrote.



I'm going to throw your own words right back at you: go level RDM to 99 as it is quite obvious you don't know much about RDM. I have melee'd on RDM in delve. On Wopket I did 80% damage of the MNK.... I would hardly call that "just feeding TP". And as to your comment about a RDM putting themselves in danger and getting killed..... you do know that RDM is one of the most capable jobs at surviving? O wait, you don't, cuz you don't play RDM.

Actually, there is no way to make erratic flutter last 8 minutes. I do however admit I am wrong that it only lasts 5 minutes. I even changed it just for you. I forgot about the update where they now add 5% duration per merit which makes it last very slightly over 6 minutes (still no where near 8 minutes). So my bad, sorry. But since you used 8 minutes, lets say it did last 8 minutes just for the sake of argument. That is still 2 minutes of everyone going with out haste and to a pld in many of the big fights, haste full time or close to it is important. I never claimed I know it all. But, you basically put blu out there making it sound like the absolute best job in the game and glorified the hell out of it when most of your examples are very poor and not as great as they sound on paper. You say don't use the set points argument, however it is a very big factor. Like I said, blu is a great job. Not taking anything away from it in the slightest. But it is hardly as overpowered as you say. Which is my main point.

And here we go, now we are talking about survivability solo. As far as solo goes, I stand by that many of your examples are poor. Again, they sound good on paper. You just admitted straight up that rdm is very capable of surviving. They have immediate access to all spells. Blu does not. Although we have many defensive spells, they either cost a lot of mp, or they don't last long enough to be of any use. And please don't tell me I am confused this time and say you are not talking about survivability because all of your spell examples are survivability spells that you used for blu in your claim of how over powered we are. By the way, I was not confused at all before either. You used AoE as a part of your example, so I used it back. I call it as I see it. You also used winds of promy as an example in your list of "Overpowering spells." So you say this is not about parties, but some of your examples say otherwise. But since we are not talking about parties anymore, if your DD skills are boosted for solo, don't you think your DD skills will be boosted for parties as well. All of these job adjustments they have been doing have not been to increase the solo skills for said jobs.

As far as you doing 80% dmg of a mnk (Not going to say it didn't happen because I was not there. Though seeing your pattern of over exaggerating of pretty much everything in your previous post, I do question it), if this is in fact true, then you obviously don't need A+ sword skill and enhanced enspells since that would be overpowering.

I still stand by my point, which you failed to mention anything about in your previous post, that rdm is seen as a support job. So if you are looking for balance, you would still want to compare rdm to brd, cor, and geo. Leave blu out of it because DD wise, blu is far from OP. And survivability wise, I don't even need an argument for since you did such a good job telling me how awesome rdm is at surviving.

And Zekander, sorry I thought I used quotes before on Protey but I guess I did not. It was not aimed to you. I actually think you make a very valid point, however, they also left out cor, brd, and geo. All 3 of their main melee weapons are still B-/b+. And the thing that is in common with all of these jobs is that they are seen as support jobs. Therefore, I can see SE's reasoning for not increasing sword skills for rdm. Not saying I completely agree with it. I just understand it I guess lol. Now, as far as Dray goes, I highly doubt him trolling will effect any decisions made by the development team. However, the title of this post being "general complaints," I can see the dev team passing right over this post just because of the title. Rather then using complaint in the title, try using "general suggestions" or "suggestions for rdm" or something along those lines. Because you do have suggestions in your main post. But if the title doesn't bring them into the thread, then there is no point for those suggestions.

[Protey]

Actually, there is no way to make erratic flutter last 8 minutes. I do however admit I am wrong that it only lasts 5 minutes. I even changed it just for you. I forgot about the update where they now add 5% duration per merit which makes it last very slightly over 6 minutes (still no where near 8 minutes). So my bad, sorry. But since you used 8 minutes, lets say it did last 8 minutes just for the sake of argument. That is still 2 minutes of everyone going with out haste and to a pld in many of the big fights, haste full time or close to it is important. I never claimed I know it all. But, you basically put blu out there making it sound like the absolute best job in the game and glorified the hell out of it when most of your examples are very poor and not as great as they sound on paper. You say don't use the set points argument, however it is a very big factor. Like I said, blu is a great job. Not taking anything away from it in the slightest. But it is hardly as overpowered as you say. Which is my main point.

And here we go, now we are talking about survivability solo. As far as solo goes, I stand by that many of your examples are poor. Again, they sound good on paper. You just admitted straight up that rdm is very capable of surviving. They have immediate access to all spells. Blu does not. Although we have many defensive spells, they either cost a lot of mp, or they don't last long enough to be of any use. And please don't tell me I am confused this time and say you are not talking about survivability because all of your spell examples are survivability spells that you used for blu in your claim of how over powered we are. By the way, I was not confused at all before either. You used AoE as a part of your example, so I used it back. I call it as I see it. You also used winds of promy as an example in your list of "Overpowering spells." So you say this is not about parties, but some of your examples say otherwise. But since we are not talking about parties anymore, if your DD skills are boosted for solo, don't you think your DD skills will be boosted for parties as well. All of these job adjustments they have been doing have not been to increase the solo skills for said jobs.

As far as you doing 80% dmg of a mnk (Not going to say it didn't happen because I was not there. Though seeing your pattern of over exaggerating of pretty much everything in your previous post, I do question it), if this is in fact true, then you obviously don't need A+ sword skill and enhanced enspells since that would be overpowering.

I still stand by my point, which you failed to mention anything about in your previous post, that rdm is seen as a support job. So if you are looking for balance, you would still want to compare rdm to brd, cor, and geo. Leave blu out of it because DD wise, blu is far from OP. And survivability wise, I don't even need an argument for since you did such a good job telling me how awesome rdm is at surviving.

And Zekander, sorry I thought I used quotes before on Protey but I guess I did not. It was not aimed to you. I actually think you make a very valid point, however, they also left out cor, brd, and geo. All 3 of their main melee weapons are still B-/b+. And the thing that is in common with all of these jobs is that they are seen as support jobs. Therefore, I can see SE's reasoning for not increasing sword skills for rdm. Not saying I completely agree with it. I just understand it I guess lol. Now, as far as Dray goes, I highly doubt him trolling will effect any decisions made by the development team. However, the title of this post being "general complaints," I can see the dev team passing right over this post just because of the title. Rather then using complaint in the title, try using "general suggestions" or "suggestions for rdm" or something along those lines. Because you do have suggestions in your main post. But if the title doesn't bring them into the thread, then there is no point for those suggestions.

ok here we go again... you are forgetting about relic feet: 5/5 merits = 25%, add feet, that's another 25%. so you're looking at 7.5 minutes. I put about 8 with a question mark because I knew it was somewhere around there. Sometimes I wonder if you play BLU as much as you say you do. Or maybe you just don't play it properly/gimped. You say I have a pattern of over exaggerating. where? that's right, I don't. I also question the things you say because you lumped a BLU in the PLD party. And you seem to think PLD needs haste. All events that a PLD is brought to is because there are RNGs. Decoy Shot says hi. Any other fights you don't bring PLDs because it is a waste. Sure, giving the PLD haste will benefit, but it's not as big of a deal as you make it out to be. Maybe you play with a group of people in a non-standard way where you put BLUs in with PLDs, more power to you. The rest of us don't.

The reason I say those things about BLU is I've seen 2 BLUs in delve keep an NM terrorized for almost the entire duration of its life. I've seen a BLU be able to heavy gravity a ton of mobs and kite them in pinch situations or just spam that spell and kill them all at once. I've seen BLU erasega and fully heal the party as if it was a WHM. I've seen BLU with like 3000 defense (though I think he might have had a minne or two), my PLD doesn't come even close to that. I've seen mythic BLU with unlimited MP. I've seen BLU outparsing MNKs. The list goes on.

You state RDM is seen as a support job. This is your own bias. RDM is a jack-of-all trades; whether it be DD, support, tank, healer... I've done them all.

As to your comment regarding how I fared against that MNK, keep in mind that I am not anywhere near the average RDM. I have put massive amounts of time and effort into it and have pretty much the best gear in all aspects. You also need to keep in mind that the SAMs were doing over double the damage of the MNK. Now SAMs are waaaaaay OP.

[Malthar]

You left out hardened shell; 100 percent defense boost.

[Selindrile]

To answer your statements:

winds of promyvion (erasega) - other jobs have to either use stratagems or be a mythic whm

Must be within melee range unlike using strategems, whm empy+2 hat also gives 10% chance of AoEing without mythic, and of course divine seal also, however, Winds is quite nice.

barrier tusk - allows them to go 15% past the PDT cap.... hmmm where have i heard that before, o PLD and RUN mythics

Barrier tusk doesn't break PDT cap, didn't last long enough to be useful before this patch, I haven't set in years, though they're increasing duration the duration this patch, doubt it'll be enough to fit it into my spells.

Subduction - gives aoe potent gravity, recast of 5 seconds, and does quite a bit of damage... RDM gravity 2 is single target, recast of 75 seconds, and does no damage

Subduction is useful only for cleaving, I don't set it for endgame content, Gravity 2 isn't terribly useful either, with the evasion component removed for most content, rarely useful in incursion, but not really.

Occultation - gives shadows based on blu skill... up to what, 10 shadows?
Occultation costs a whopping 138 MP, unless you have a tizona or are in abyssea, you're not using this spell effectively.

Cocoon - 50% defense boost. nearest anything comes to this is defender from WAR
Good spell admittedly, subbable, and I do occasionally Pld/Blu when supertanking, hardly end-all-beat-all.

Stun with very low recast time. - Doesn't work on NMs, useful for trash.
Incredibly long lasting terror. - 5 Minute recast, doesn't last long on most NMs, but a few are susceptible.
AoE Sleep. - Useful, but don't usually find room to put this in endgame sets.
AoE Haste 2 - Not much of a place for it, situationally useful but in both delve and incursion you get haste wiped on quite a few mobs, and Blu can't reapply, Rdms then have to, but it's a nice self buff.

The limitation is the crux of the argument, Blu can't be a reasonably effective DD without devoting the vast majority of their 70 set points (which few Blus have, though I do have all 70) to DDing. Utility is nice, but generally it's not enough to get an invite.

This is the heart of the matter is, do you see shouts for Blu? The last time I did was VW era, and that was because of procs.
If Blu was OP it would be one of the core jobs that is actually be shouted for, actively invited and used for content. It's one of the many middle-accepted jobs that people will allow you to go if they know you don't suck at it, much like War or Drk.

I'm not saying Rdm couldn't stand some buffs in some areas, but Blu comes short of Rdm in endgame desirability overall, hands down, being OP is more than just raw damage, but at the end of the day, if people don't desire the job, it's clearly not OP, because people desire OP jobs.