[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Maikeru_Sylph]

Before SE move on and buff other DD jobs, can we get a SAM nerf plz?

All I ever see are people wanting to nerf SAM, but SAM is hardly ever shouted for, especially for high-tier battlefields. I will admit SAM is powerful, but their strength lies in skillchaining and that alone should show people how important it is to SC+ MB again. SE is trying to get people to do that again, but people seem too lazy to do it. I think other things need to be taken into consideration like Tsurumaru. Also, if SAM should be nerfed then it should also come 3-fold, including RNG and MNK. I know people don't want to nerf RNG again, but the job requires no skill to play and ranged weaponskills shouldn't ignore DEF. The future seems to be full of high-tier battlefields and the only DD getting invited is RNG.

SE needs to stop and think about how they can make other DD jobs just as useful as these jobs. If they don't want to buff their damage capabilities, then they need to increase their support capabilities. SMN, for instance, could use a huge buff on Wards (and Avatar's Favor is not how to go about it). DNC, in another example, can do a lot of different things, but other jobs do it more efficiently. There needs to be something that makes a DNC stand out, and it's not TP-based healing. Ain't no one got time for TP-based healing (unless you're soloing)! Start by buffing the hell out of Haste Samba. Everyone loves that. Go ahead, break it. Make these support capabilities as good as BRD.

Cap on Enmity? I don't even know where your head was at SE. Simple solution for tanks is to remove it. In fact, do it right now and make an announcement about it.

[Mitruya]

I will dance in the streets the day PUP is actually wanted for anything.
I wholeheartedly agree with Camiie's post.

[Camiie]

Before SE move on and buff other DD jobs, can we get a SAM nerf plz?

Nerf what exactly? TP gain? Weapon skill power? Attack power? Accuracy? Weapon damage? Hasso?

[Dale]

Only old content. That's the point, I don't care about being good at solo. Every job is good at solo now. There is literally nothing relevant a bst can solo that other jobs can't do better. But they are also the most likely job going out there with little/no haste.

But my Paladin really isn't good at general soloing. That's what I'm trying to get across. For example: when I'm running around doing coalition quests, colonization and lair reives, farming etc.... it's just pointless for me to ever use my Paladin for it because haste makes my RDM so much better at it. It may not be the only example out there, but I do think it's a relevant one. I even use my RDM when I go out farming items intended for my Paladin, which is kind ironic.

Haste generally is just very powerful. I know because I have been completely spoiled by haste 2 on my RDM and it's hard for me to live without it now lol. So I think the developers are trying to address a real issue here where jobs that have access to haste do enjoy a significant advantage over those who don't. So I think it's a smart design decision to try and increase the weapon skill power of these jobs. Because as an earlier post eluded to - one handed jobs tend to rely on auto attacks more for their damage and haste affects this in a big way.

I understand some of the points you and others make about this not being an answer to solve other problems and job balance in general. That's probably true. But regardless, I do think this is a real issue that needs some attention and I'm glad to see the developers are addressing it.

Hope that clears up what I'm trying to say.

[Dale]

What SE needs to do is focus on how jobs perform in their respective roles within a group setting and ignore any advantages outside of that completely. Whether a job can solo well or not should have no negative bearing on what it's capable of in a group. I'd feel the same if FFXI had a heavy PVP element. PVP shouldn't affect PVE. Solo shouldn't affect group play. Jobs shouldn't be one trick ponies or one event wonders. They should be able to contribute meaningfully in all aspects of group play. Sorry, devs, if that's too hard for you. Sorry players if you're afraid someone else with a different job will horn in on your turf. That's the way it should be.

You make an interesting point and I agree with it in spirit - but I feel all jobs already can contribute meaningfully to a group.

Chances are if a job is really good at solo it's going to be pretty powerful and will be able to hold its own in a group as well. It's been my experience the stigma against jobs that are good at solo not being good in groups is more a result of bias/misunderstanding and or a un-willingness of that group to accept anything less than perfect.

I went through this back in the old days when I played a PLD/WHM and was constantly derided as being a solo job that sucked in groups. I can't tell you the amount of insults and mockery I endured. However once I found a group of open-minded friends willing to accommodate my play-style we excelled, beat CoP and succeeded in sky. Something I was told I would never be able to do yet I proved every one of them wrong.

[Dale]

All I ever see are people wanting to nerf SAM, but SAM is hardly ever shouted for, especially for high-tier battlefields. I will admit SAM is powerful, but their strength lies in skillchaining and that alone should show people how important it is to SC+ MB again. SE is trying to get people to do that again, but people seem too lazy to do it. I think other things need to be taken into consideration like Tsurumaru. Also, if SAM should be nerfed then it should also come 3-fold, including RNG and MNK. I know people don't want to nerf RNG again, but the job requires no skill to play and ranged weaponskills shouldn't ignore DEF. The future seems to be full of high-tier battlefields and the only DD getting invited is RNG.

SE needs to stop and think about how they can make other DD jobs just as useful as these jobs. If they don't want to buff their damage capabilities, then they need to increase their support capabilities. SMN, for instance, could use a huge buff on Wards (and Avatar's Favor is not how to go about it). DNC, in another example, can do a lot of different things, but other jobs do it more efficiently. There needs to be something that makes a DNC stand out, and it's not TP-based healing. Ain't no one got time for TP-based healing (unless you're soloing)! Start by buffing the hell out of Haste Samba. Everyone loves that. Go ahead, break it. Make these support capabilities as good as BRD.

Cap on Enmity? I don't even know where your head was at SE. Simple solution for tanks is to remove it. In fact, do it right now and make an announcement about it.

I don't think Samurais need a nerf either.

They are capable of extremely high burst damage - no doubt about it. But due precisely to the enmity cap you mention I think that helps keep them in check and from becoming over-powered.

[Kensagaku]

I disagree with helping "keep them in check." In most situations, your SAM doesn't even need to throw up Third Eye/Seigan, /nin shadows, etc; they just bull right through the big targets with multiple Fudos while your stunners keep TP moves from seriously damaging them, meaning that they can go nuts with no fear of retribution besides auto attacks and the occasional missed stun, which in most cases your WHM can deal with quickly. With the DD Zerg/Stun mentality most EG has going for it now, SAM is unrivaled for that burst damage, and has no reason to hold back on it; the enmity cap does nothing for them, except make Overwhelm a little harder to position when mobs start pingponging due to multiple capped hate DDs. Even then they have more than enough damage to not worry about it.

[Dale]

I disagree with helping "keep them in check." In most situations, your SAM doesn't even need to throw up Third Eye/Seigan, /nin shadows, etc; they just bull right through the big targets with multiple Fudos while your stunners keep TP moves from seriously damaging them, meaning that they can go nuts with no fear of retribution besides auto attacks and the occasional missed stun, which in most cases your WHM can deal with quickly. With the DD Zerg/Stun mentality most EG has going for it now, SAM is unrivaled for that burst damage, and has no reason to hold back on it; the enmity cap does nothing for them, except make Overwhelm a little harder to position when mobs start pingponging due to multiple capped hate DDs. Even then they have more than enough damage to not worry about it.

But the situation you describe seems more like an example of a well-organized strategy using high burst damage coupled with well-timed stuns. It doesn't seem like the abuse of a over-powered job to me.

The enmity cap is still a factor because that's why you have to bring stuns in the first place. So the Samurai doesn't die from auto attacks in the aftermath of a nasty TP move. So I don't see any problem with this.

[Ulth]

All I ever see are people wanting to nerf SAM, but SAM is hardly ever shouted for, especially for high-tier battlefields. I will admit SAM is powerful, but their strength lies in skillchaining and that alone should show people how important it is to SC+ MB again. SE is trying to get people to do that again, but people seem too lazy to do it. I think other things need to be taken into consideration like Tsurumaru. Also, if SAM should be nerfed then it should also come 3-fold, including RNG and MNK. I know people don't want to nerf RNG again, but the job requires no skill to play and ranged weaponskills shouldn't ignore DEF. The future seems to be full of high-tier battlefields and the only DD getting invited is RNG.

SE needs to stop and think about how they can make other DD jobs just as useful as these jobs. If they don't want to buff their damage capabilities, then they need to increase their support capabilities. SMN, for instance, could use a huge buff on Wards (and Avatar's Favor is not how to go about it). DNC, in another example, can do a lot of different things, but other jobs do it more efficiently. There needs to be something that makes a DNC stand out, and it's not TP-based healing. Ain't no one got time for TP-based healing (unless you're soloing)! Start by buffing the hell out of Haste Samba. Everyone loves that. Go ahead, break it. Make these support capabilities as good as BRD.

Cap on Enmity? I don't even know where your head was at SE. Simple solution for tanks is to remove it. In fact, do it right now and make an announcement about it.

Yep the job that gets shouted for is RNG, but that is also a symptom of the problem. First the reason people shout for RNG, but not SAM is the quality of SAM matters more than a RNG. For AA fights a poorly geared RNG will make due, but in delve which calls for a SAM, you actually need a geared one that knows what they are doing. That's why people don't shout for SAMs, they use ones they know, that they know are geared. But the problem that is making both of these jobs more powerful is the stats on gear. If you look closely the amount of store tp on gear has been steadily rising. This is a very good thing for jobs that have high delay weapons like SAM and RNG. On the contrast jobs with low delay weapons benefit much more from gear that increases number of hits; these are your one handed jobs. However since the addition of ilvl the stats for extra hits are actually going down.

[Camiie]

You make an interesting point and I agree with it in spirit - but I feel all jobs already can contribute meaningfully to a group.

Chances are if a job is really good at solo it's going to be pretty powerful and will be able to hold its own in a group as well. It's been my experience the stigma against jobs that are good at solo not being good in groups is more a result of bias/misunderstanding and or a un-willingness of that group to accept anything less than perfect.

WAR/DNC with dual axes (in which case he's nerfing himself)

versus

BST/DNC with dual axes and the best DD pet available

Both using Ruinator. Both using essentially the same gear. I guarantee you that the WAR wins every time. Now compare the BST to a WAR going all out with GA and /SAM. The WAR wins by an even greater margin. The BST doesn't have the DPS tools that the WAR has and the pet doesn't make up the difference.