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Thread: Useless spells

  1. #21
    Player Zekander's Avatar
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    Zekander
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    Asura
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    RDM Lv 99
    Few spells have no use whatsoever, one could argue that tier 2 enspells would be useful to a red mage between levels 50 and 70 that is using a subjob other then war, nin, or dnc, but this is such a narrow use that it renders them effectively useless.

    I know it's easy these days to forget that there are levels between 30 and 99, you may notice from my character info that I am currently in the process of leveling RDM. Old school. I'm fighting VT-IT mobs with trust npcs and I'm having fun doing it. The entire point of leveling up is to grow stronger, to get better equipment and better spells. This inevitably makes old equipment and spells obsolete. We pretty much all agree that tier 2 enspells are currently not better in general then tier 1s and it just frustrates me knowing that when I hit 50 and got Tier 2 enspells I was getting a side-grade at best.

    I suppose success can be measured in inches.
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  2. #22
    Player Raydeus's Avatar
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    You really don't know what you are talking about.
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    'Don't ever, ever try to lie to the internet. Because they will catch you. They will de-construct your spin. They will remember everything you ever say for eternity.'
    - Lord Gaben

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale View Post
    Why is the statement that I think Red Mage is one of the best designed classes so hilarious?

    Very few games have been able to pull off an effective support class role. This game's Red Mage is one of the very few that has succeeded at it.
    Because they were designed with "meleeing, in a party atmosphere" in mind, which has never, ever been the norm, Rdm was pretty much ignored by the populace before Refresh was made, that one spell skyrocketed it into usefulness above all other jobs, debuffing was possible but never really all that reliable on ITs (except Bio/Dia) that were the bread and butter of oldschool XI, and yes they obsoleted Whm, but that wasn't out of better design overall, they were both pretty barebones before Whm got Afflatuses and Rdm got Composure.

    The reason Rdm suceeded as a support mage had nothing to do with it's overall design, it was and is access to unique buffs and debuffs which are very useful, which ones are useful have changed over the years with the content.

    From a design perspective Drg, Sch, Dnc, were much better thought out and crafted jobs, good concept design doesn't always translate to actual ingame utility if the numbers aren't balanced. (Though admittedly composure was a really cool and successful design choice, once they added that.)

    As for other MMOs successful support classes: Enchanter and Bard from EQ? Shamans from WoW? Control Wizard from NWN? (I haven't played every MMO out there but those pop into my head right off as great examples of successful support classes from popular MMOs.)
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    Last edited by Selindrile; 09-27-2014 at 06:01 PM.

  4. #24
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Jeremi
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    Quetzalcoatl
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    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Selindrile View Post
    Because they were designed with "meleeing, in a party atmosphere" in mind, which has never, ever been the norm, Rdm was pretty much ignored by the populace before Refresh was made, that one spell skyrocketed it into usefulness above all other jobs, debuffing was possible but never really all that reliable on ITs (except Bio/Dia) that were the bread and butter of oldschool XI, and yes they obsoleted Whm, but that wasn't out of better design overall, they were both pretty barebones before Whm got Afflatuses and Rdm got Composure.

    The reason Rdm suceeded as a support mage had nothing to do with it's overall design, it was and is access to unique buffs and debuffs which are very useful, which ones are useful have changed over the years with the content.

    From a design perspective Drg, Sch, Dnc, were much better thought out and crafted jobs, good concept design doesn't always translate to actual ingame utility if the numbers aren't balanced. (Though admittedly composure was a really cool and successful design choice, once they added that.)

    As for other MMOs successful support classes: Enchanter and Bard from EQ? Shamans from WoW? Control Wizard from NWN? (I haven't played every MMO out there but those pop into my head right off as great examples of successful support classes from popular MMOs.)
    I'll agree with you the job was flawed before composure was added. But giving the job unique buffs and enfeebles and changing them for the better is part of its design and why it succeeds as a support class to begin with. So I'm not sure what we are disagreeing about. I was never trying to say Red Mage was well-designed from the beginning. It wasn't. I'm judging the class as it stands today.

    Also Red Mage can function as support in melee. You'll just need a lot of accuracy gear and it may not be ideal to engage against certain notorious monsters. But in most party settings - even against incredibly toughs - Red Mage can use melee adequately if they so choose. They will never be balanced with a dragoon as you point out. But they shouldn't be. It's a support class, and we aren't suppose to be balanced with other classes in melee damage. That's why we can use phalanx 2 and haste 2 on the dragoon you mention and turn him into a beast.

    I never played EQ or NWN, but the support Shaman in WoW failed. It's now just used as a healer or damage dealer.
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    Last edited by Dale; 09-27-2014 at 08:20 PM.

  5. #25
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Jeremi
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    Quetzalcoatl
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zekander View Post
    Few spells have no use whatsoever, one could argue that tier 2 enspells would be useful to a red mage between levels 50 and 70 that is using a subjob other then war, nin, or dnc, but this is such a narrow use that it renders them effectively useless.

    I know it's easy these days to forget that there are levels between 30 and 99, you may notice from my character info that I am currently in the process of leveling RDM. Old school. I'm fighting VT-IT mobs with trust npcs and I'm having fun doing it. The entire point of leveling up is to grow stronger, to get better equipment and better spells. This inevitably makes old equipment and spells obsolete. We pretty much all agree that tier 2 enspells are currently not better in general then tier 1s and it just frustrates me knowing that when I hit 50 and got Tier 2 enspells I was getting a side-grade at best.

    I suppose success can be measured in inches.
    I don't understand why you think being able to lower an enemy's resistance is only useful while leveling up. But you are entitled to your opinion. Since I already let me views about the En-Spells 2 be known I'll just leave it at that.

    I just wanted to let you know that as a Red Mage you have a lot of powerful spell upgrades in the way you prefer to look forward to. Distract 2, Frazzle 2, Haste 2, Flurry 2, Gravity 2, Shell V to name a few. So I wouldn't let the tier 2 en spells frustrate you. You have plenty of spell upgrades in the pipe line. Not to mention you just got Refresh 2, which is about as nice of a spell upgrade someone can ask for.
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  6. #26
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    At any given time, there was generally only ONE reason to invite a RDM, currently, that reason is Haste II, previously in the past it has been different things, mostly one at a time, whether it be Refresh or Gravity or Phalanx II or Dia III, this is not good design, these abilities do not generally work together to form an interesting whole, interesting choices at their core etc etc. Right now we invite Rdms because they have Haste II, and they can replace Sch's job of stunning reasonably well.

    Sure Rdm can function as support in melee, heck, so can Whm, but it's way less efficient to do so, mostly because of the AoE moves of monsters slowing down your reaction time for your primary jobs, requiring healing and supporting yourself, etc putting such a job with a ton of support juggling into melee was never really thought out well design wise, which is the same trap that is the downfall of Dnc, despite them being much more interesting, design wise. It was already stated though that what is well thought out in the design realm doesn't always translate into ingame usefulness. Composure itself is a neat design choice, choosing between recast timers and lengthened buffs is actually a choice in the present day (primarily Haste II length VS Stun recast) but it wasn't really always.

    Shaman was at some point in history a wonderfully successful support, Innervate added a lot to a party (much like Refresh), as later they were a Heroism whore, though that was much like Rdm, a one-trick pony, they could melee far more efficiently than other support mages, throw some heals and buff many jobs. I'm not sure their current state, admittedly, I haven't played WoW in some time, but they were very popular in a support role, and very "successful" by that standard. And in fairness Rdm has certainly had their ups and downs, even in recent history. In the Aby era they were a Phalanx source for cleaves, in VW era they were basically unused Chainspell Stun onry on a couple mobs, in early delve they were basically there to land blind on Kuku and dispel Kurma's Defense Boost before everyone had as much Macc, then they fell by the wayside until Haste II and Flurry came out. You can hardly call Rdm generically successful, and definitely not from a design perspective, they've had a lot of ups and downs, as have most jobs, but they definitely aren't a shining example of design.

    Well designed jobs are one who display interactivity, dependancy, and synergy between ones' abilities. "Well Balanced" and "Well Designed" are two different things, I never said anything about Rdm not being balanced with a melee job having anything to do with anything. Drg for example is a relatively weak overall job, but wyvern differences depending on subjob, spells from other jobs triggering a wyvern's abilities, wses removing debuffs, or being more offensive in nature with other subjobs and of course the wyvern levelling up, ability to grant your wyvern your buffs, these things are interesting, they were ultimately underpowered by and large, but that doesn't make them poorly designed, only poorly balanced.
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    Last edited by Selindrile; 09-27-2014 at 08:37 PM.

  7. #27
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Jeremi
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    Quetzalcoatl
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selindrile View Post
    At any given time, there was generally only ONE reason to invite a RDM, currently, that reason is Haste II, previously in the past it has been different things, mostly one at a time, whether it be Refresh or Gravity or Phalanx II or Dia III, this is not good design, these abilities do not generally work together to form an interesting whole, interesting choices at their core etc etc. Right now we invite Rdms because they have Haste II, and they can replace Sch's job of stunning reasonably well.

    Sure Rdm can function as support in melee, heck, so can Whm, but it's way less efficient to do so, mostly because of the AoE moves of monsters slowing down your reaction time for your primary jobs, requiring healing and supporting yourself, etc putting such a job with a ton of support juggling into melee was never really thought out well design wise, which is the same trap that is the downfall of Dnc, despite them being much more interesting, design wise. It was already stated though that what is well thought out in the design realm doesn't always translate into ingame usefulness. Composure itself is a neat design choice, choosing between recast timers and lengthened buffs is actually a choice in the present day (primarily Haste II length VS Stun recast) but it wasn't really always.

    Shaman was at some point in history a wonderfully successful support, Innervate added a lot to a party (much like Refresh), as later they were a Heroism whore, though that was much like Rdm, a one-trick pony, they could melee far more efficiently than other support mages, throw some heals and buff many jobs. I'm not sure their current state, admittedly, I haven't played WoW in some time, but they were very popular in a support role, and very "successful" by that standard. And in fairness Rdm has certainly had their ups and downs, even in recent history. In the Aby era they were a Phalanx source for cleaves, in VW era they were basically unused Chainspell Stun onry on a couple mobs, in early delve they were basically there to land blind on Kuku and dispel Kurma's Defense Boost before everyone had as much Macc, then they fell by the wayside until Haste II and Flurry came out. You can hardly call Rdm generically successful, and definitely not from a design perspective, they've had a lot of ups and downs, as have most jobs, but they definitely aren't a shining example of design.

    Well designed jobs are one who display interactivity, dependancy, and synergy between's ones' abilities. "Well Balanced" and "Well Designed" are two different things, I never said anything about Rdm not being balanced with a melee job having anything to do with anything. Drg for example is a relatively weak overall job, but wyvern differences depending on subjob, spells from other jobs triggering a wyvern's abilities, wses removing debuffs, or being more offensive in nature with other subjobs and of course the wyvern levelling up, ability to grant your wyvern your buffs, these things are interesting, they were ultimately underpowered by and large, but that doesn't make them poorly designed, only poorly balanced.
    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree at this point because I do believe Red Mage to be an accomplishment in design. It has evolved extremely well on this game and I've seen a job I used to loath quite possibly become my favorite.

    They have unique and powerful buffs useful to both casters and melee while still maintaining modest offensive and defensive capabilities for themselves. To me that is what a support job requires to maintain relevance. Rather you call it design or balance is a matter of semantics I think.

    As far as what used to be in the past you may or may not be right. I am speaking terms of the present only and don't wish to debate the way things used to be. I agreed with you the job was not well designed from the beginning and many of your points about past problems are well-taken.

    On a side not: I have no idea why you think Dragoon is a weak class. In the right hands that job is insane - especially with some Red Mage support ^^
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    Last edited by Dale; 09-27-2014 at 09:01 PM.

  8. #28
    Player Malithar's Avatar
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    Malothar
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    Bahamut
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    GEO Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale View Post
    They have unique and powerful buffs useful to both casters and melee
    Such as?

    At best, Haste II saves your Brd from singing one March, at worst, it adds nothing further since we're already capping magical haste. Refresh II is always nifty but largely unneeded. Dia III is lackluster in a world with Geo-Frailty, though it doesn't hurt. Distract and Frazzle II aren't bad, but those alone aren't enough to suddenly make Rdm sought after, specially when Brd's Madrigals or Geo's Precision/Torpor do more. The only unique buff Rdm has that'd I'd consider them for a slot for is Flurry II in a Rng setup, even more so if it's a fight where a Whm isn't needed.

    I used to be a fan of what Rdm was capable of doing, the various options it had. Now, honestly, just go play Geo/Rdm and melee. Depending on the content, your (as well as your parties) damage will greatly benefit from Geo/Indi Frailty + Fury. /Rdm affords you the ability to keep a Haste/Flurry/Refresh rotation, spot cures, Dia II, and the full line of tier 1 debuffs, if any of that's needed, if not, get on the front lines and make things actually die faster. Rdm just has far too much to do to melee effectively, and the things it has available to do are generally too ineffective to be of real worth, beyond Haste/Flurry/Dia/Refresh.
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    7/10/14

  9. #29
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Jeremi
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    Quetzalcoatl
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    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Malithar View Post
    Such as?

    At best, Haste II saves your Brd from singing one March, at worst, it adds nothing further since we're already capping magical haste. Refresh II is always nifty but largely unneeded. Dia III is lackluster in a world with Geo-Frailty, though it doesn't hurt. Distract and Frazzle II aren't bad, but those alone aren't enough to suddenly make Rdm sought after, specially when Brd's Madrigals or Geo's Precision/Torpor do more. The only unique buff Rdm has that'd I'd consider them for a slot for is Flurry II in a Rng setup, even more so if it's a fight where a Whm isn't needed.

    I used to be a fan of what Rdm was capable of doing, the various options it had. Now, honestly, just go play Geo/Rdm and melee. Depending on the content, your (as well as your parties) damage will greatly benefit from Geo/Indi Frailty + Fury. /Rdm affords you the ability to keep a Haste/Flurry/Refresh rotation, spot cures, Dia II, and the full line of tier 1 debuffs, if any of that's needed, if not, get on the front lines and make things actually die faster. Rdm just has far too much to do to melee effectively, and the things it has available to do are generally too ineffective to be of real worth, beyond Haste/Flurry/Dia/Refresh.
    You just went through a whole list of examples then discredited them with what I would consider a very dubious logic.

    For example, you admit refresh 2 is nifty, but then say it's unneeded. Well, you can make that argument about everything I suppose. As nothing red mage has is really needed, because it is possible to defeat enemies without them. Red Mages are their to support and make things easier for the group or pitch hit for other roles (though to a lesser degree) when they are not available. They aren't a must have .

    I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't find your reasons convincing. You admit they have a lot of good stuff. But then you explain why they aren't needed or other jobs can do similar effects. If you want to find a reason to find fault with something bad enough, you can. And people who want to stand out (a phrase I keep seeing in the rdm forums) and provide an essential role probably shouldn't play a support class, because they are probably always going to feel inadequate being one.

    Yes bard can haste as well. But they are a support class too. So is a Geomancer. To imply Red Mages aren't good because they have spells similar to other support classes that fill the same role doesn't make much sense to me. That's like saying there is a problem with a monk because a warrior can do damage too.

    I also take issue with you saying the only thing of worth a Red Mage has is Haste/Flurry/Dia/Refresh. To me that is selling this job short. But as I told that other guy, you are entitled to your opinion and I don't see the point in arguing it cause I doubt either of us are going to change our minds. Just for me to get my point across and let the developers know that I am impressed with what they have done with this job is good enough for me.
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    Last edited by Dale; 09-27-2014 at 11:38 PM.

  10. #30
    Player Zekander's Avatar
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    Zekander
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    Asura
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    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale View Post
    I don't understand why you think being able to lower an enemy's resistance is only useful while leveling up. But you are entitled to your opinion. Since I already let me views about the En-Spells 2 be known I'll just leave it at that.

    I just wanted to let you know that as a Red Mage you have a lot of powerful spell upgrades in the way you prefer to look forward to. Distract 2, Frazzle 2, Haste 2, Flurry 2, Gravity 2, Shell V to name a few. So I wouldn't let the tier 2 en spells frustrate you. You have plenty of spell upgrades in the pipe line. Not to mention you just got Refresh 2, which is about as nice of a spell upgrade someone can ask for.
    I haven't even mentioned the lowered resistance effect because of two reasons. Firstly and most important the relationships between resistances were not well thought out at all; EX Enthunder II lowers resistance to earth, thunder is strong against water, which generally has no special resistance to earth, so you aren't aiming at the enemy's weakness to improve the damage of your enspell. Now this would be acceptable if the element were at least neutral, but earth is generally resistant to thunder so in order to reduce the resistance of an earth based mob you are forced to use an element that is weak against the target you are attacking, severely reducing the damage from the enspell. Again, you could argue that you aren't helping yourself with the spell, you are helping other members of your party, but to have such an obvious defect just goes to show how far out of the way SE was going to really screw RDM with these spells. The second reason is that any mob you would actually need the resistance effect for is going to be incredibly strong anyway and both difficult for a RDM to hit in melee and dangerous to be near anyway.

    As for the other spells I really haven't had to use any of them so far, I eat sushi and my accuracy is fine against the mobs I fight with double march from Ulmia so I haven't needed Distract. I merited my enfeebling magic skill so my magic accuracy is good even in melee gear so I haven't had to use frazzle. I understand that these spells are much more useful in a real party, but that won't happen till 99 so they aren't really something to look forward to yet. Does Gravity 2 even have a use anymore? They removed the evasion down effect from it and I've heard that most things are immune to gravity now anyway.
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