What about the other jobs?

[Maikeru_Sylph]

So, looking over the Damage Dealing section of the forum I came across this thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...s-are-relevant from 4 months ago, and found it to still be relevant today. Why? Because over half of the jobs in this game are never utilized for new game content. However, to be completely honest, this isn't just a 4 month long issue, this is a FFXI lifetime issue. For example, why are PUP and DRG still LOLjobs? Did they not receive any updates? If they did, apparently the updates weren't enough. SMN was once considered a great source of reliable/consistent DPS, but is no longer invited and not even considered a DD by many. MNK is now the best magic DD? What? Why even release GEO and RUN when they supposedly aren't up to "par" with PLD/BRD in game?

Once again, why is that? Are people simply unable to think outside of the box? Are the other jobs not able to perform up to par with the other jobs? You tell me.

Why can't people play the jobs they want and enjoy the content as well? Why are they instead pigeonholed into playing one of the select few jobs wanted for content? Why so much endgame content focused on 6-man parties? If there were room for more than 6, then other jobs might actually get invited. 6-man parties are severely limiting and force people to be too selective.

[Mitruya]

You have all my likes.
PUP and DRG and many other jobs have gotten tons of updates, yet it still isn't efficient enough for the elitists. Not to mention there are some serious drawbacks to certain jobs on really difficult content - you can look around on the forums and see where people have tried and what their experiences were. Some if not all jobs CAN clear content but it takes knowing the right people or setting up your own runs to achieve it.
It's partially the jobs (weak pets, JA delay, attack penalties, low defense, etc.), partially the players ("go solo it with Trusts" or "flavor-of-the-month job or GTFO"), and partially the content (time constraints, massive damage, etc.) that screws us over.
And yeah I agree with all the lowman stuff, it really leaves people out.

[Doombringer]

i don't think numbers has anything to do with it. back when delve HAD to be done in an alliance (it still CAN be done in an alliance but whatever, we'll gloss over that for now.) it was still generally a very rigid setup.

players are always going to find what's optimal and use it. but hey, at least drg is slated for a pretty interesting buff sometime next month?

[Malithar]

Some jobs need help, sure, but in a LS or friend's group, most are able to perform well enough to complete. From a PUG stand point, you'll never see a situation where all 22 jobs are welcomed outside of something highly gimmicky like VW, and even that shunned Bst and Pup. As was said above, players find the optimal way to do things and roll with it. If everything was on the same plane of power, and any setup could be made optimal, why bother bringing Sam, War, Drk, etc, when a Bst, Pup, Smn, Blm, etc could put out just as much damage, have no fear of weakened status, and DD from out of range? They have a way to go as far as balancing goes, but all things considered, most jobs at least bring something desirable, whether that's solo, party, or alliance content.

Why even release GEO and RUN when they supposedly aren't up to "par" with PLD/BRD in game?

They released Geo because they felt there needed to be something more OP than Brd. :P I doubt it'll ever hit the PUG scene as it's not an easy job to pull the most out of, what with positioning within bubbles to maintain buffs/debuffs and for the Geo's own MP efficiency being major factors in how well it can perform. But for the groups that can utilize it? Geo blows Brd away. Geo + Brd as a back line is something magical.

[Maikeru_Sylph]

Some jobs need help, sure, but in a LS or friend's group, most are able to perform well enough to complete. From a PUG stand point, you'll never see a situation where all 22 jobs are welcomed outside of something highly gimmicky like VW, and even that shunned Bst and Pup. As was said above, players find the optimal way to do things and roll with it. If everything was on the same plane of power, and any setup could be made optimal, why bother bringing Sam, War, Drk, etc, when a Bst, Pup, Smn, Blm, etc could put out just as much damage, have no fear of weakened status, and DD from out of range? They have a way to go as far as balancing goes, but all things considered, most jobs at least bring something desirable, whether that's solo, party, or alliance content.

Right now, we are looking at a situation where SMN/DNC/THF/BLU/RUN/GEO/PUP/BST/NIN/COR/DRG are either sometimes invited (when they can't find BRD, MNK, or RNG) or never invited. For those jobs that are never invited, does that mean they are supposed to solo content? I can solo a lot on my SMN, but I don't think I can solo any of the current endgame content, and even old content requires some decent gear. I guess that means I have to level one of the jobs they will invite, so I can get gear for the jobs I want to play.

[Malithar]

I guess that means I have to level one of the jobs they will invite, so I can get gear for the jobs I want to play.

That's pretty much been the case for the entirety of FFXI's existence. Be glad that in this day and age, leveling and gearing a job can take days, whereas in the early days, if you found yourself in love with say, Bst, Mnk, or Drg, you had no real relevant roll in any type of content, and was facing months of work to get another job up to par.

When you say "a job they will invite," if it's your friends/LS, sell yourself on what you bring on x job to a group. You listed numerous jobs that bring plenty to a great number of fights, and a good player behind the controls can do enough with it to either be slightly less optimal, or go above and beyond what your group may know the job can do. As said, some need a lil boost, for sure. But regardless of what boost they receive, this "they" you speak of, being pugs, will never, ever seek a less optimal job, unless they have no choice or a gimmick leaning the content to the strength of those jobs is in play.

[Aeron]

That's pretty much been the case for the entirety of FFXI's existence. Be glad that in this day and age, leveling and gearing a job can take days, whereas in the early days, if you found yourself in love with say, Bst, Mnk, or Drg, you had no real relevant roll in any type of content, and was facing months of work to get another job up to par.

When you say "a job they will invite," if it's your friends/LS, sell yourself on what you bring on x job to a group. You listed numerous jobs that bring plenty to a great number of fights, and a good player behind the controls can do enough with it to either be slightly less optimal, or go above and beyond what your group may know the job can do. As said, some need a lil boost, for sure. But regardless of what boost they receive, this "they" you speak of, being pugs, will never, ever seek a less optimal job, unless they have no choice or a gimmick leaning the content to the strength of those jobs is in play.

Totally true statement and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. If you want to play on jobs that are outside of the established known set up for a given run the onus is on you and or your friend to achieve that. SE cant balance 22 jobs against each other, they just cant. You are always going to see some jobs that are just better then others, fact of life im afraid.

[Maikeru_Sylph]

You put this off like it's a problem that FFXI has always had and always will, but hasn't this game changed a lot? Why can't they make content that's for more than the "best" jobs? Why can't they make content for everyone? The fact that there are so many jobs and only a few are even considered for content, is a big problem. I shouldn't have to level another job so that I can play another on my own. The fact the matter is that many jobs CAN perform just as well as, if not better than, the jobs that are being invited. People are just stuck in their ways and it's extremely frustrating, especially for new players. What happens after I spend all my time getting a job to 99 and gearing it out, only to find that no one wants to invite it to content? Your solution, and has always been, to level another job. I think that's BS.

[Malithar]

You put this off like it's a problem that FFXI has always had and always will, but hasn't this game changed a lot?

In the way we exp, gear, and complete content, it's changed dramatically. But this problem has always been a thing. Were you around in 2003-2004 when Mnk's "role" was to sit on the sidelines boosting for 3 minutes or whatever, then get invited into the ally to Chi-Blast for like 1k damage? Hint, that wasn't optimal at all, it was simply what was given to them to do, to be kind of effective. Bst had no real role in most endgame, though it had some minor utility with kiting and soloing sky pops and such.

Why can't they make content that's for more than the "best" jobs? Why can't they make content for everyone? The fact that there are so many jobs and only a few are even considered for content, is a big problem.

Explain how they do that. More kiting fights for Bst and Pup pets to pick apart? As players, we'd just super buff with Perfect Defense, Geo -Att, Pld + Rngs, etc to get through it. Players in this game find an optimal way to do things, and they tend to stick to it, for better or worse. Someone posts "x strategy worked with y jobs on z fight" and suddenly that's what you see in shouts. There's not much SE can do about that, even if they wanted to.

I shouldn't have to level another job so that I can play another on my own. The fact the matter is that many jobs CAN perform just as well as, if not better than, the jobs that are being invited. People are just stuck in their ways and it's extremely frustrating

So what do you think SE should do about that? For the most part, most jobs have something to offer, whether in the absence of something more optimal, or for an off the wall strategy. Fact is, as you said, players are stuck in their ways, and no amount of boosts to non-optimal jobs will change that, unless those boosts make them the optimal choice. But doing that gets you into a whole new deal of a mess, because lo and behold, the jobs that are optimal are so because that's all they can do. If Bst, Pup, Dnc, Smn, Blm, Rng, Blu, etc could suddenly do just as much, if not more damage than say Sam, War, Drk, or Mnk, then for what reason would you ever bring those jobs? Using them would risk weakness, which can be worked around by pet jobs, casters, or Rngs, plus many of those other jobs have JA's that offer them the ability to shed enmity, whereas none of the strong melees do.

Each comes with it's pros and cons, it just so happens that the players have the tools available to ignore all the cons with with heavy melees in order to take advantage of their pros, IE, much higher damage than other jobs. The pros associated with the other jobs don't cut it as optimal in typical parties, but that doesn't mean they're not usable.

What happens after I spend all my time getting a job to 99 and gearing it out, only to find that no one wants to invite it to content? Your solution, and has always been, to level another job. I think that's BS.

That's the only workable solution that we have to us, as players. If you feel it's BS, if you don't agree with it, then I suggest you start or join a LS that is open to using other jobs. My own LS does things differently sometimes just cause, the game has very little content that requires an exact rigid setup that cannot be changed. Stellar Fulcrum VD is the only thing that comes to mind, and even it has an ingenious (read; high risk, but doable) strat with Rngs spread out around the room making him run all over the place instead of TP moving faces in half.

[Afania]

Right now, we are looking at a situation where SMN/DNC/THF/BLU/RUN/GEO/PUP/BST/NIN/COR/DRG are either sometimes invited (when they can't find BRD, MNK, or RNG) or never invited. For those jobs that are never invited, does that mean they are supposed to solo content? I can solo a lot on my SMN, but I don't think I can solo any of the current endgame content, and even old content requires some decent gear. I guess that means I have to level one of the jobs they will invite, so I can get gear for the jobs I want to play.

GEO doesn't get invite because half of the GEO can't stun in delve1 nor DD properly. It's down right one of the best mage job for delve. I'd take a good GEO over most other jobs in this game.

COR doesn't get invite because everyone and their mother play COR naked. You don't invite a job that's naked. The fact that the community still advocate "lv COR, roll and afk" doesn't help.

DRG is getting a pretty big buff soon, so we'll see.