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  1. #1
    Player Byrth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,172
    Character
    Byrth
    World
    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99

    Contradance and Steps

    First, I'd like to say that I am excited that Dancer is getting new abilities and stronger maximum debuff potency and agree that these abilities will likely improve the job. The job will certainly be better after these changes than it is right now. I am glad that you guys are still paying attention to the job and attempting to fix it in some way that does not involve job points.


    However, the changes will not make DNC desirable and fail to seriously address any of the problems with the job's healing/debuffing.


    Dancer fails as a healer under the following conditions:
    1) A lot of AoE damage spam with too many people in range - Critical flaw: Dancer always has to be in range and has to feed TP to continue healing. There are definitely monsters where Dancer fails as a healer when you consider damage created through their TP feed.
    2) AoE status effects that hit the Dancer - Critical flaw: Dancer always has to be in range
    3) Situations where monsters are able to do a lot of single target damage rapidly and wear out our timers - This used to be a much larger problem but has been substantially addressed by splitting the Waltz timers.
    Example: If you are fighting AATT, Sleepga or being hit with Amon Drive would render you impotent as a healer. If fighting Ouryu, any of his Slowga forms would render you impotent as a healer. If fighting AAMR, being hit with Havoc Spiral would render you impotent as a healer. If fighting AAEV, all the AoE damage would overwhelm you. If fighting Shadow Lord, all the AoE damage would overwhelm you. If fighting Puppet in Peril, all the AoE damage would overwhelm you. etc.


    Dancer fails as a debuffer under the following conditions:
    6) Fights are quick, so daze potency is low on average - Critical flaw: Most fights are quick, even in events like Ra'Skirmish. Heck, Tojil takes 3 minutes to kill?
    7) Dancer's debuffs aren't useful - Feather Step is always useful, but Quickstep/Box Step/Stutter Step are not useful against the level 75 content that most people use Dancers for.
    8) Dancer's debuff delays outweigh their benefit - This is similar to #2, but factors in Haste. In situations with high Haste, you take on considerable DD-burden to maintain an aggressive Step rotation.
    Example: It currently takes 75 seconds for dancer to provide an average of 11% Defense Down. This assumes that the monster lives for 75 seconds (most do not) and that Presto is up when you start. It realistically costs about 7~8 seconds of JA delay. So the Dancer sacrifices ~10% of their DPS for 11% Defense Down. It might net a gain in DPS for the group, or it might not depending what you're fighting and what your other buffs/debuffs are. After the patch, we will be able to continue spending ~10% of our DPS for slightly stronger average debuffs in longer fights, which is an improvement over the current situation but will only apply to monsters that live longer than a minute.


    Superior solutions would have been to give us an AoE status removal Waltz with low recast (#2 addressed) and increase Level 1-5 Daze potency for Dancer main job (#6, #8 addressed).
    * As proposed, the Step changes will not have any effect on the vast majority of fights, because the vast majority of fights do not even reach Level 5 Daze. If implemented as I proposed, this would have affected all fights.
    * Contradance is fine as a JA and I look forward to using it, but its 5 minute timer means that it can't be relied on strategically in any fight. If I need Erasega every time a monster uses a bad TP move, the monster uses the bad TP move 1/5 of the time, and the monster uses 10 TP moves per minute, then I need Erasega twice per minute on average and sometimes as often as twice every 6 seconds. A 5 minute timer is not going to work for that. I will probably just save it for a Divine Waltz II in bad situations.
    (10)
    Last edited by Byrth; 08-29-2014 at 05:47 AM.

  2. #2
    Community Rep Grekumah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    349
    Greetings,

    Thanks for the feedback on dancer.

    The September version update is right around the corner and we’d like to hear your feedback after you've actually had a chance to try out the adjustments that are to take place.

    In the mean time, however, I’d like to give a tiny bit of supplemental information about the dancer adjustments.

    First, Contradance is an ability that is on par with white mage's Divine Seal, so you can expect it to give healing potency a nice boost. Additionally, we've made adjustments so that dancer as a main job can play a bigger role in longer party battles by boosting the effects of steps. As an example, if you stack steps up to level 10 with Feather Step, the entire party’s critical hit rate will increase by 10% and if you stack steps up to level 10 with Stutter Step, the monster’s magic evasion will be reduced by 30.

    Also, as a side note, we've been receiving requests for waltzes that are similar to white mage's Esuna or blue mage's Winds of Promyvion, but we do not have any plans to add something like this at the moment.
    (3)
    Colby "Grekumah" Casaccia - Community Team

  3. #3
    Player Minikom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    93
    Character
    Minikomby
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    now you guys added new ja for dnc and recast is lower than Divine seal and basically this new jA does same thing, are whms gettng reduction on timer for divine seal?
    (0)

  4. #4
    Player Karbuncle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    4,314
    Quote Originally Posted by Grekumah View Post
    Greetings,

    Thanks for the feedback on dancer.

    The September version update is right around the corner and we’d like to hear your feedback after you've actually had a chance to try out the adjustments that are to take place.

    In the mean time, however, I’d like to give a tiny bit of supplemental information about the dancer adjustments.

    First, Contradance is an ability that is on par with white mage's Divine Seal, so you can expect it to give healing potency a nice boost. Additionally, we've made adjustments so that dancer as a main job can play a bigger role in longer party battles by boosting the effects of steps. As an example, if you stack steps up to level 10 with Feather Step, the entire party’s critical hit rate will increase by 10% and if you stack steps up to level 10 with Stutter Step, the monster’s magic evasion will be reduced by 30.

    Also, as a side note, we've been receiving requests for waltzes that are similar to white mage's Esuna or blue mage's Winds of Promyvion, but we do not have any plans to add something like this at the moment.
    Thanks Grems

    On the steps bit, I think what Byrth is trying to say is that most battles won't last long enough for any one DNC to get a step up to 10, so It would be hard to fully utilize the bonuses this update offers. Also, is DNCs design to be a DD healer or a Healer DD? Cause at the moment it excels at neither, and I can't even remember the last time, in years, I've even seen a DNC in endgame (let alone in town walking around). I mean, people complain about how useless SMN and BST are but at least I see those in Dynamis and a little ways back ADL/Legion... but DNC? Can't even remember getting a tell from a DNC for events like skirmish where im just looking for any DD....

    Sorry... I didn't mean to turn this into a complaint (I don't even play DNC) =.=a

    Thanks again!
    (10)

  5. #5
    Player Astrael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    6
    Character
    Astrael
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    I for one am in love with the Step changes, not all fights are going to be over in under 2 minutes so you'll get to take advantage of them here and there and it's not like we go from 0 to 30% in one shot, it's gradually stronger over time... even Step level 1 is a debuff. Plus more finishing moves to reverse flourish or pre-load building flourish/climactic flourish is always nice.

    A little iffier on Contradance just for the recast but it's got two uses I'd use it for and that's better than 0, so it's not going to waste on me.

    I play DNC in all endgame content (minus Wopket, the piercing resist is just not worth fighting against), and really, this is what I was asking for the whole time for DNC main. All I really want now is a better distribution of the Flourish timers so we can use and stack finishing moves more often and I'm set.
    (1)

  6. #6
    Player Karbuncle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    4,314
    In all seriousness, good for you for going DNC to things, but my point was not a single person or group is wanting/shouting/thinking DNC for anything. You might play it all the time in endgame, but, your situation is seriously as unique as the word can justify. DNC is by all means a suboptimal and subpar job, excelling at neither healing nor damage nor debuffing, and brings little unique aspects to the table.
    (6)

  7. #7
    Player FrankReynolds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,592
    Character
    Mrkillface
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    The amount of effort / time it takes to get and maintain 10 steps is seriously prohibitive to the point that no one is even going to consider bringing dancer for that. This job needs help.
    (8)

  8. #8
    Player Liteholt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    15
    Character
    Liteholt
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    BLM Lv 99
    As someone who plays DNC, and plays it well, I can say that DNC is a very viable addition to end-game content. In Skirmishes, we can tear things up, provide spot-healing to take some pressure off the WHMs when AoE attacks land with Divine Waltz (my waltz setup can restore 600+ HP with DW2, 770+ with CW3), and use our steps to enfeeble the mobs. Just last night, I was in an AA party. We tore up the MR, EV, and TT (on normal, but still not anywhere near easy). I've also done extremely well in Alluvion Skirmish and Outer Ra'Kaznar Skirmish, as being on the move and still being able to heal is a big advantage in those events.

    The biggest issue, that I see, with DNC is that it is a job that can very well perform in the top-tier, I find myself often out-parsing SAMs, but it takes a player who knows how to play the job, and can shift with the flow of battle to what is needed in the moment.
    (2)

  9. #9
    Player Ataraxia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    146
    Character
    Angelicsmile
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Liteholt View Post
    As someone who plays DNC, and plays it well, I can say that DNC is a very viable addition to end-game content. In Skirmishes, we can tear things up, provide spot-healing to take some pressure off the WHMs when AoE attacks land with Divine Waltz (my waltz setup can restore 600+ HP with DW2, 770+ with CW3), and use our steps to enfeeble the mobs. Just last night, I was in an AA party. We tore up the MR, EV, and TT (on normal, but still not anywhere near easy). I've also done extremely well in Alluvion Skirmish and Outer Ra'Kaznar Skirmish, as being on the move and still being able to heal is a big advantage in those events.

    The biggest issue, that I see, with DNC is that it is a job that can very well perform in the top-tier, I find myself often out-parsing SAMs, but it takes a player who knows how to play the job, and can shift with the flow of battle to what is needed in the moment.
    I been DNC since 75 cap. I do not believe you can out-parsing a SAM when DNC can't even out-parse a WAR, MNK, DRK, DRG, RNG. The Samurai must of been really lazy to get out-parse by a DNC. With Current update to weapon skill damage you can not out-parse these DD listed and believe me when i say this because i tried. I believe a THF can pretty much out damage a DNC. You can test this for yourself when you do Morta VW shout and see what i'm talking about or do a Delve boss run. :/

    Unless a miracle happen and Akihiko Matsui decided to lower Climactic Flourish JA to 30 second and fix Striking Flourish / Ternary Flourish than just maybe DNC can reach a 90% DD while other job like SAM, WAR, DRK, DRG, RNG will be 100%. I will currently rate DNC below a THF since THF can resort to sneak attack + Rudra's storm every 1 minute or use trick attack + Rudra's storm when sneak attack is down and it does a lot of damage. DNC is indeed a good support role but why would anyone invite us when they can get a geo, rdm or even a sch with current update to RDM and GEO they would prefer those job. If they wanted DD they probably go for Sam or Mnk. So if anyone want to be a DNC in event is to be Leader and go DNC =) "But be careful that you don't make a fool out of yourself in high level content and fail because they most likely blame DNC"
    (0)

  10. #10
    Player Astrael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    6
    Character
    Astrael
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    Grudgingly getting into semantics, it only takes 30 seconds to get to a level 5 step (but another minute from there to get to level 10).

    Pull [0:00] > Level 2 (Precharged Presto) [Def-7% or Evasion-12 or Crit+4%]
    [0:15] > Level 3 [Def-9% or Evasion-16 or Crit+5%]
    [0:30] > Level 5 (Presto) [Def-13% or Evasion-24 or Crit+7%]

    This is our current state pre-update. On fodder mobs--the only actual things that don't take longer than 30 seconds to kill--I would just be going full DD Saber Dance anyways with just the initial step to charge Finishing Moves when needed. This update isn't meant for those kinds of fights though, because no one is really worried about debuffing fodder.

    [0:45] > Level 6 [Def-15% or Evasion-28 or Crit+8%]
    [1:00] > Level 8 (Presto) [Def-19% or Evasion-36 or Crit+10%]
    [1:15] > Level 9 [Def-21% or Evasion-40 or Crit+11%]
    [1:30] > Level 10 [Def-23% or Evasion-44 or Crit+12%]

    [3:30] > Level 2 (Presto) *assuming the 2 minute duration extension remains

    Realistically, most Delve boss fights and D/VD high-tier battlefields are not over in 1.5 minutes without some serious gear and job optimization and even then. But, we may as well discuss what role several other jobs have if we're going that far in our assessment of what is optimal or not. Steps may not be a fulltime debuff at maximum potency but level 10 is still easily attainable and will last the duration of a presumed "quick" boss NM fight. At the 45 second marker of a fight is the moment the update takes effect. If the battle does last longer than Step duration of 2 minutes (at the 3:30 mark), then arguments against the update due to battle duration become moot because the fight is long enough for DNC's debuffs to make a difference. Furthermore, the time it takes to reach level 10 can be partially mitigated by any other job going /DNC (such as COR) to help elevate the 1-5 Step level, eliminating 15-30 seconds worth of wait.

    Addressing Contradance, it go without saying but DNC by design is not a job that you slot in to fill a sole healer role unless it is content with literally no or light AOE damage. As far as I've been playing it, it is primarily a DD (sometimes tank) that is able to adapt quickly and supports the backline with arguably the fastest first-response heals in critical situations/heavy debuffs while supplying enhanced stat down. It is not a slouch in DD by any means with the ability to self-skillchain every 2 steps applied in the above pattern (and it is more than capable of getting 1000+ free TP between Reverse Flourishes even with job ability delays and an occasional healing waltz in that time). But with Contradance, it can do one of two major things once a fight: fully heal the party with Divine Waltz II or erase a whole party's worth of debuffs, which saves the WHM time especially if non-mythic and JA timers are down for Accession. In my experience DNC only gets crippled as a healer when Amnesia'd or Paralyzed, due to it eating job ability timers (which is the one thing I really wish they'd address).

    As Liteholt said, DNC is a challenging job that takes excellent timing to play well. But it can perform/assist in any capacity and actually serves to make most fights simply easier and due to it being surprisingly very hard to kill can make the difference between a win or loss (as I have demonstrated several times in delve/KI fights). These updates may not be low effort, but they've still got uses in content that matters and I'm looking forward to them. Now just to wait for their addressing of the Finishing Move system (one of the last things they claimed DNC was having adjusted).
    (2)
    Last edited by Astrael; 08-31-2014 at 10:44 AM. Reason: proofreading

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