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  1. #11
    Player Afania's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
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    1,445
    Character
    Afania
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfox View Post
    I woukd like to tank in contents like Delve, High-Tier Battlefields, and New Skirmish.
    Not trying to say RUN is as good as PLD, but RUN can already tank in above content.
    (0)

  2. #12
    Player Nightfox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    49
    Character
    Nightfox
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    RUN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Afania View Post
    Not trying to say RUN is as good as PLD, but RUN can already tank in above content.
    Not without being in runs with friends, I've never once seen a shout asking for a RUN on my server, when i am on at least. The time limit in such content with rune fencer in its current state is also a problem. There are strategies with pld and DD and/or rng, but not with RUN.
    (3)

  3. #13
    Player
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
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    447
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfox View Post
    Not without being in runs with friends, I've never once seen a shout asking for a RUN on my server, when i am on at least. The time limit in such content with rune fencer in its current state is also a problem. There are strategies with pld and DD and/or rng, but not with RUN.
    Welcome to MMOs, where the bandwagoners, elitist, noobs, sheep, or whatever you may call them cling to a single posted strat that has worked, and will not deviate without an extreme buff to said not-shouted-for job, or a situation arises where the shouted job absolutely can't be filled.

    Many jobs fit into this. War and Drk may not have quite the oomph of Sam post SC update, but they're still more than capable DDs for any content, same deal with a fair number of other DD jobs. When's the last time you've seen them shouted for? How often do you see Geo shouted for? Sch? Blm? Smn? These are all jobs that while maybe having an issue or three that need worked out, are more than capable of filling a role in content. Whether the player base at large accepts that or not isn't really something the developers can control, short of massive buffs, and even that doesn't always have the intended effect. Geo is downright ridiculous at the moment, barring ballads for your backline, it destroys what Brd is capable of doing, specially an Idris Geo. Have you seen them shouted for though?

    Chances are, even if you're desperate and will risk taking a Run over a Pld, you won't get a good Run. How many good Runs do you know? Personally, I know one. That doesn't give me much confidence at all that shouting for one will turn up a good result, I'd more than likely end up getting a Run that swore by /Sam to tank and had full 119 AF/Relic at best, and thought they were a badass. At least with Pld, you kind of assume if they have Ochain and an Aegis, they at least have an idea of what they're doing.

    Many of those same strats designed for Pld and Rngs can and do work with Run as well. It can surely get a bit messy, doubly so if the Run gets unlucky or lacks specific sets, but it's plenty do-able.
    (2)
    7/10/14

  4. #14
    Player Olor's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    2,134
    lol... so how many idris GEOs are there? 4? 7? 3 on each server? using as an example someone with a mythic or mythic equivalent is silly...
    (3)
    http://photobucket.com/gallery/http://s19.photobucket.com/user/soulchld4/media/Olorinus-Signature.jpg.html

  5. #15
    Player
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    447
    Quote Originally Posted by Olor View Post
    lol... so how many idris GEOs are there? 4? 7? 3 on each server? using as an example someone with a mythic or mythic equivalent is silly...
    Non-Idris Geo is still stronger for Acc and Att (-Def really) wise than a Brd. I mentioned Idris Geo cause it's far and away stronger, not just a lil stronger.
    (1)
    7/10/14

  6. #16
    Player Martel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    249
    Character
    Martel
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Einalem View Post
    I love data updates like this!
    If you can find that other thread a link would be great, sir!
    Well, that's a nice enthusiastic response.

    Here's a small parry/shield comparison. It's a bit less in-depth than I had vaguely recalled. Really just one data set at a given lvl with Aegis. But still interesting.

    I did a quick search for my RUN related posts on this forum, and came up with this. This is a comparison of PLD and RUNs enmity generation.

    While I've done a lot more PLD related testing that RUN related, there's probably still more floating around on these forums. Using the advanced search with my name(exact name checked) is a pretty good way of going through it.

    As a game mechanics resource, I'd recommend http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg. Particularly http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/RUN.

    The BG forums are also an excellent resource. And sometimes things discovered on the forums don't make it on to the wiki. But there's a ton of stuff to sift through.

    The FFXIAH forums are also a pretty good resource.
    (0)

  7. #17
    Player Bebekeke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    97
    I always find that RUN is better as a supporting tank. PLD+RUN or RUN + a group of DDs, even RUN + RUN bouncing hate. RUN is very good at mitigating damage, though if it's very hard-hitting mobs, you'll quickly run out of MP spamming near insta-cast stoneskin. The other thing that RUN has going for it apart from magic and parry is a reasonable evasion. PLD will never expect to evade an attack, other than the 5% floor, whereas RUN can expect to evade at a much higher rate, particularly when using swordplay and during TP moves when using foil.

    Not to mention it's fairly easy to get -50% PDT on RUN, and not too hard to reach -55%
    (0)

  8. #18
    Player Afania's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,445
    Character
    Afania
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfox View Post
    Not without being in runs with friends, I've never once seen a shout asking for a RUN on my server, when i am on at least. The time limit in such content with rune fencer in its current state is also a problem. There are strategies with pld and DD and/or rng, but not with RUN.
    RUN/NIN act like a PLD in a tank+RNG setup. It's the same strategy, just using different job to execute it.

    You shouldn't use /shout to determine a job's strength, because:

    1) 90% of the /shout pt setup can't be a real indication of a job's strength.

    For example, GEO is the best job for the stunner spot in delve1 since GEO can do buff/debuff AND stun + Nuke. Most of the /shout pt on my server still /shout for a....SCH. Which is a much worse alternative than RDM and GEO for the stunner spot.

    No delve pt ever /shout for jobs like COR, instead they /shout for MNKx3, while COR provide more contribution than 1 single MNK can provide. COR is also a good skirmish3 job and ppl don't /shout for it either, instead they /shout for MNKx3~4 >.> While MNK x3~4 can clear skirmish just fine it's not ideal to have an entire pt full of MNK but no COR.

    Half of the ceizak pt /shout for a RNG before flurry2 update. Pretty sure before flurry update RNG isn't as ideal as namas SAM in ceizak.

    I think ppl need to stop using "no one /shout for X job" to argue whether a job suck or not. Most /shout pt do things completely wrong nor /shout for ideal job/setup. If you want to argue about X job suck, you need to use game mechanics/gears and compare players playing/gearing right. Ppl don't /shout for a GEO because most GEO doesn't have proper DD/cure/stun set to contribute enough, despite GEO is a superior alternative to SCH. Ppl don't /shout for a COR because most COR/WHM, despite COR is still a superior alternative to 3rd MNK.

    Most ppl don't /shout for RUN because most RUN don't even play the job like a real tank.

    2) Most of the time, you can send /tell and ask if you can join on another job, even if the pt lead didn't /shout for it.

    70% of the time I can get an invite on a different job, just saying.

    That being said, if you do that, don't suck on the job. I often get invite on COR even if the pt wasn't /shouting for it, but when I get invite I do make sure I do enough contribution so they have a good impression on the job. There are several pt that /shout for SAM or MNK for delve, I bugged the hell out of leader for a spot on COR when they said COR suck. After I got the spot I often do enough dmg contribution so they all shut up.

    You can try to send a /tell when pt is shouting for a PLD, but make sure you can do the job(keep hate and not die) just fine on RUN. Again, RUN can tank marj/AA/DM just fine, but if you suck/fail then you can't really complain about ppl not /shouting for it. It doesn't change the fact that RUN can do the job just fine though.
    (0)
    Last edited by Afania; 08-16-2014 at 07:14 AM.

  9. #19
    Player Nightfox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    49
    Character
    Nightfox
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    RUN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Afania View Post
    RUN/NIN act like a PLD in a tank+RNG setup. It's the same strategy, just using different job to execute it.

    You shouldn't use /shout to determine a job's strength, because:

    1) 90% of the /shout pt setup can't be a real indication of a job's strength.

    For example, GEO is the best job for the stunner spot in delve1 since GEO can do buff/debuff AND stun + Nuke. Most of the /shout pt on my server still /shout for a....SCH. Which is a much worse alternative than RDM and GEO for the stunner spot.

    No delve pt ever /shout for jobs like COR, instead they /shout for MNKx3, while COR provide more contribution than 1 single MNK can provide. COR is also a good skirmish3 job and ppl don't /shout for it either, instead they /shout for MNKx3~4 >.> While MNK x3~4 can clear skirmish just fine it's not ideal to have an entire pt full of MNK but no COR.

    Half of the ceizak pt /shout for a RNG before flurry2 update. Pretty sure before flurry update RNG isn't as ideal as namas SAM in ceizak.

    I think ppl need to stop using "no one /shout for X job" to argue whether a job suck or not. Most /shout pt do things completely wrong nor /shout for ideal job/setup. If you want to argue about X job suck, you need to use game mechanics/gears and compare players playing/gearing right. Ppl don't /shout for a GEO because most GEO doesn't have proper DD/cure/stun set to contribute enough, despite GEO is a superior alternative to SCH. Ppl don't /shout for a COR because most COR/WHM, despite COR is still a superior alternative to 3rd MNK.

    Most ppl don't /shout for RUN because most RUN don't even play the job like a real tank.

    2) Most of the time, you can send /tell and ask if you can join on another job, even if the pt lead didn't /shout for it.

    70% of the time I can get an invite on a different job, just saying.

    That being said, if you do that, don't suck on the job. I often get invite on COR even if the pt wasn't /shouting for it, but when I get invite I do make sure I do enough contribution so they have a good impression on the job. There are several pt that /shout for SAM or MNK for delve, I bugged the hell out of leader for a spot on COR when they said COR suck. After I got the spot I often do enough dmg contribution so they all shut up.

    You can try to send a /tell when pt is shouting for a PLD, but make sure you can do the job(keep hate and not die) just fine on RUN. Again, RUN can tank marj/AA/DM just fine, but if you suck/fail then you can't really complain about ppl not /shouting for it. It doesn't change the fact that RUN can do the job just fine though.
    I understand what your saying, that post wasnt to compare job strength to /sh, but to its current position in the world. I could of said that I have never seen a /sh for a DNC either, but I have seen a DNC perform well past what i thought it could in a Stellar Fulcrum II run. it all depends on the skill of the player and if u get the chance to show what you can do, usually meaning host your own run, as in his case. I have never asked to substitute another job for what is shouted though, mostly because i dislike when players do it to me. Any leader -- or i should say most leaders -- would not want to gamble on a strategy that could potentially cause a failed run if another strategy has already succeeded. Especially if the cost is greater than the gamble, ie. pop item costs, merit point costs, and other costs.
    (0)

  10. #20
    Player Afania's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,445
    Character
    Afania
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightfox View Post
    I understand what your saying, that post wasnt to compare job strength to /sh, but to its current position in the world. I could of said that I have never seen a /sh for a DNC either, but I have seen a DNC perform well past what i thought it could in a Stellar Fulcrum II run. it all depends on the skill of the player and if u get the chance to show what you can do, usually meaning host your own run, as in his case. I have never asked to substitute another job for what is shouted though, mostly because i dislike when players do it to me. Any leader -- or i should say most leaders -- would not want to gamble on a strategy that could potentially cause a failed run if another strategy has already succeeded. Especially if the cost is greater than the gamble, ie. pop item costs, merit point costs, and other costs.

    Using RUN over a PLD isn't a gamble on a different strategy though, it's the exactly same strategy except it's RUN instead of PLD.

    PLD+RNG setup = PLD tank, RNG TP WS.

    RUN+RNG setup = RUN tank, RNG TP WS.

    If you're replacing PLD with a RDM, or BLM, or another melee so the setup has no tank at all, then it's gambling on a different strategy. But RUN and PLD are both tanks so I don't understand what's wrong with that.

    I also have to point out, using RUN to tank over PLD is also a "strategy has already succeeded". Ppl have done it before, so you can't say it has potential to fail because of the job.
    (0)
    Last edited by Afania; 08-16-2014 at 06:25 PM.

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