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  1. #21
    Player Karbuncle's Avatar
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    The idea of debuffing is that its suppose to gimp you. Sorry, thats the idea of the entire ability. Maybe dispelling all buffs is a bit extreme when it comes to monster TP moves, but I think dispel is an adequate move for enemies to use. Its called strategy and I personally don't want to be the one to say it because being blunt and slightly rude isn't my style, but yah, deal with it. Dispel is there to weaken you, they give you buffs and give the possibility of them being removed... thats its intended effect for f**ks sake. Maybe SE simply chose the wrong wording when saying "required to perform its job" because now every idiot with a bone to pick is going to find a way to bend that wording like a defense lawyer looking for a way to twist it against them, but Dispel is suppose to be a pain in the butt, Dispel is suppose to DISPEL YOUR BUFFS, to that extension, its suppose to slow down your damage output, Dispel is suppose to remove buffs that increase your power. They have their reasons for RUN and PUP and they're acceptable, maybe for RUN moreso than PUP.

    Its a tough choice for them when it comes to this type of choice, they added Reraise to undispellable buffs which I think was a good call, but adding every buff thats nothing more than a convenience is asinine, and I don't find "Dispel makes me weak" a good argument either since that was its intended effect.

    In the end, this thread is plenty example that If one job gets an undispellable buff, then other jobs chime in wanting theirs, and soon, "Dispel" is a worthless ability when used by enemies. Everyone is chimming in claiming their job "Depends" on certain buffs and blah blah. Next we'll here THFs complaining their job depends on Conspirator, or SMN complaining their job depends on Avatar's Favor, DRK saying their job depends on Soul eater. Its silly people. While each of these buffs can define a purpose of the job, the job does not cease to function without them, and back when PUP was introduced and its intended design, without Maneuvers, Automatons would cease to function properly.

    I imagine SE made the decision about RUN because for one they're a tank job, which is already a long dying art in XI, so a tank job without a shield constantly sacrificing DPS to put RUNs back up after a dispel would be dead on arrival, and for two, they depend on reducing magic damage to function as a tank, and their only means to do this is runes, if you look at it this way, runes are a RUNs shield, you can't dispel a PLD's shield, which a PLDs means of defense... (though equipment removal is another story, but equipment removal effects all frontline jobs equally, where as Dispel does not).

    That said I'd be okay with SE adjusting Equipment Removal abilities to no longer target weapons, or at least the Sub weapon slot to protect PLD, thats the only "Turnabout is fair play" I'm going to give headway.
    (3)
    Last edited by Karbuncle; 07-27-2014 at 10:35 PM.

  2. #22
    Player Tptn937's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    42
    Character
    Warusha
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BLM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Lambtor View Post
    RDMs need Dispel II to even this out.
    DRK gets Nether Void Absorb-Attri to take two effects.
    (0)

  3. #23
    Player Damane's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Character
    Damane
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    Phoenix
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    DNC Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Karbuncle View Post
    The idea of debuffing is that its suppose to gimp you. Sorry, thats the idea of the entire ability. Maybe dispelling all buffs is a bit extreme when it comes to monster TP moves, but I think dispel is an adequate move for enemies to use. Its called strategy and I personally don't want to be the one to say it because being blunt and slightly rude isn't my style, but yah, deal with it. Dispel is there to weaken you, they give you buffs and give the possibility of them being removed... thats its intended effect for f**ks sake. Maybe SE simply chose the wrong wording when saying "required to perform its job" because now every idiot with a bone to pick is going to find a way to bend that wording like a defense lawyer looking for a way to twist it against them, but Dispel is suppose to be a pain in the butt, Dispel is suppose to DISPEL YOUR BUFFS, to that extension, its suppose to slow down your damage output, Dispel is suppose to remove buffs that increase your power. They have their reasons for RUN and PUP and they're acceptable, maybe for RUN moreso than PUP.

    Its a tough choice for them when it comes to this type of choice, they added Reraise to undispellable buffs which I think was a good call, but adding every buff thats nothing more than a convenience is asinine, and I don't find "Dispel makes me weak" a good argument either since that was its intended effect.

    In the end, this thread is plenty example that If one job gets an undispellable buff, then other jobs chime in wanting theirs, and soon, "Dispel" is a worthless ability when used by enemies. Everyone is chimming in claiming their job "Depends" on certain buffs and blah blah. Next we'll here THFs complaining their job depends on Conspirator, or SMN complaining their job depends on Avatar's Favor, DRK saying their job depends on Soul eater. Its silly people. While each of these buffs can define a purpose of the job, the job does not cease to function without them, and back when PUP was introduced and its intended design, without Maneuvers, Automatons would cease to function properly.

    I imagine SE made the decision about RUN because for one they're a tank job, which is already a long dying art in XI, so a tank job without a shield constantly sacrificing DPS to put RUNs back up after a dispel would be dead on arrival, and for two, they depend on reducing magic damage to function as a tank, and their only means to do this is runes, if you look at it this way, runes are a RUNs shield, you can't dispel a PLD's shield, which a PLDs means of defense... (though equipment removal is another story, but equipment removal effects all frontline jobs equally, where as Dispel does not).

    That said I'd be okay with SE adjusting Equipment Removal abilities to no longer target weapons, or at least the Sub weapon slot to protect PLD, thats the only "Turnabout is fair play" I'm going to give headway.
    ^this pritty much sums up how i see dispel and how i feel about it. there is really no need to further dumb down mob moves. Its a strategy, deal with it.
    (1)

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karbuncle View Post
    they depend on reducing magic damage to function as a tank, and their only means to do this is runes, if you look at it this way, runes are a RUNs shield, you can't dispel a PLD's shield, which a PLDs means of defense...
    Ask Hurkan the secret. Although it affects parrying too.

    Joking aside, pretty much agree. Or if dispels are so rough, bring a Geo! ;D
    (0)
    7/10/14

  5. #25
    Player Olor's Avatar
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    I dunno, DemonJustin has a good point... for jobs that need to be buffed to even be slightly useful, it is a huge slap in the face... especially when you consider those jobs are not top-tier to begin with (thinking mostly of BLU and RDM here) ... these are jobs that are given all sorts of "self-only" buffs ... and then they can have them all wiped in an instant - even though the job's relative power is based on those buffs. I really don't see how that's fair.
    (1)
    http://photobucket.com/gallery/http://s19.photobucket.com/user/soulchld4/media/Olorinus-Signature.jpg.html

  6. #26
    Player Damane's Avatar
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    Damane
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    Phoenix
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    DNC Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Olor View Post
    I dunno, DemonJustin has a good point... for jobs that need to be buffed to even be slightly useful, it is a huge slap in the face... especially when you consider those jobs are not top-tier to begin with (thinking mostly of BLU and RDM here) ... these are jobs that are given all sorts of "self-only" buffs ... and then they can have them all wiped in an instant - even though the job's relative power is based on those buffs. I really don't see how that's fair.
    this effects all jobs, every job that isnt buffed will be shit tier on any remotely hard battle (Delve 2.0, D or VD hardmode mission battles): tanks, melees, mages, there is no exeption to that.

    the question is can the job function at its core without the buffs? all can, with the exeption of RUN, if a RUN has no runes up he cant do his core job function: tank and mitgate magical dmg.
    The other jobs still function even if their buffs were wiped in their core function:
    melees can still melee
    mages can still heal/debuff/nuke/buff
    buffers can still buff
    pld can still tank.
    (0)
    Last edited by Damane; 07-29-2014 at 06:35 AM.

  7. #27
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    I think what I'm saying is being taken the wrong way honestly. I'm not saying remove the ability to remove buffs, I'm saying some things shouldn't be, some jobs shouldn't be as susceptible, there should be defenses against it. Scream strategy all you'd like it doesn't change the fact that there's no real defense against full buff wiping attacks, it's a thing you just have to deal with. Most things that are really good for strategy actually involve a way to avoid things like this in my opinion. I liked how Outer Ra'kaznar Skirmish was for instance, where many of the most deadly attacks could be avoided. Beastruction? Ha, WS from behind, Ballistic Kick? Don't use magic on it... Tectonic Shift? No WSs guys! These in my opinion are strategic more so than say... instantly removing every buff a player has forcing the party to spend a minute or 2 quickly applying them again. Sure, it might take less work, but really which is less strategic? Which takes the smarter players here?

    Besides that, I think jobs like RDM with Composure up at very least should have a defense against it. I've said it multiple times this thread, RDM has 15 buffs it gets by it's own doing, let alone from others... would it be so bad for Composure to give a 50% chance to resist Dispel? To add an effect to it that allows it to negate Dispel at the cost of removing Composure? To allow the amount of buffs dispelled while Composure is active to be halved? I'm not saying remove dispel as a tool the enemy can use I'm saying nerf it a bit because right now it's stupidly overpowered to some jobs and in general.

    As I explained before, the balance between buffs and debuffs is way off. Players have all of the buff power, NMs have all of the debuff power, the opposite has the ability to try using the opposite but they don't often do well. The only time in recent history I can think of buffs on the enemy being at all dangerous are Tojil's buff, which is 4 in one and only primarily being deadly because of the Blaze Spikes which make us kill ourselves(due to our own buffs!), and the auras that all Naakauls have by default. At the same time enemies use tons of attacks far more powerful than anything we come close to. It's a balancing issue which I suppose full buff dispels stem from but that doesn't really make it any better.

    To me, full buff wipes aren't strategic, they're just annoying. They shouldn't be removed, but they shouldn't affect all jobs equally. They shouldn't be full buff wipes either in my opinion, even setting a high cap like 10 would be better than flat out saying the skys the limit, any number of buffs that aren't on X-list are gone.
    (1)

  8. #28
    Player Damane's Avatar
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    Damane
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    Phoenix
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    DNC Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Demonjustin View Post
    I think what I'm saying is being taken the wrong way honestly. I'm not saying remove the ability to remove buffs, I'm saying some things shouldn't be, some jobs shouldn't be as susceptible, there should be defenses against it. Scream strategy all you'd like it doesn't change the fact that there's no real defense against full buff wiping attacks, it's a thing you just have to deal with. Most things that are really good for strategy actually involve a way to avoid things like this in my opinion. I liked how Outer Ra'kaznar Skirmish was for instance, where many of the most deadly attacks could be avoided. Beastruction? Ha, WS from behind, Ballistic Kick? Don't use magic on it... Tectonic Shift? No WSs guys! These in my opinion are strategic more so than say... instantly removing every buff a player has forcing the party to spend a minute or 2 quickly applying them again. Sure, it might take less work, but really which is less strategic? Which takes the smarter players here?

    Besides that, I think jobs like RDM with Composure up at very least should have a defense against it. I've said it multiple times this thread, RDM has 15 buffs it gets by it's own doing, let alone from others... would it be so bad for Composure to give a 50% chance to resist Dispel? To add an effect to it that allows it to negate Dispel at the cost of removing Composure? To allow the amount of buffs dispelled while Composure is active to be halved? I'm not saying remove dispel as a tool the enemy can use I'm saying nerf it a bit because right now it's stupidly overpowered to some jobs and in general.

    As I explained before, the balance between buffs and debuffs is way off. Players have all of the buff power, NMs have all of the debuff power, the opposite has the ability to try using the opposite but they don't often do well. The only time in recent history I can think of buffs on the enemy being at all dangerous are Tojil's buff, which is 4 in one and only primarily being deadly because of the Blaze Spikes which make us kill ourselves(due to our own buffs!), and the auras that all Naakauls have by default. At the same time enemies use tons of attacks far more powerful than anything we come close to. It's a balancing issue which I suppose full buff dispels stem from but that doesn't really make it any better.

    To me, full buff wipes aren't strategic, they're just annoying. They shouldn't be removed, but they shouldn't affect all jobs equally. They shouldn't be full buff wipes either in my opinion, even setting a high cap like 10 would be better than flat out saying the skys the limit, any number of buffs that aren't on X-list are gone.
    i think you dont understand what camate/dev team explained, RDM can still buff itself and others, debuff mobs, heal etc. even without composure/whatever stuff, the job is working still at its core. a RUN cant do his task when runes are dispelled: tanking and mitgating magical dmg, hence the reason why Runes became undispellable, the same applies to PUP and maneuvers.

    sure your damage output will go down, but EVERY JOB has to deal with that when getting fully dispelled and loosing all brd buffs (even RUN and PUP).
    (0)

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damane View Post
    i think you dont understand what camate/dev team explained, RDM can still buff itself and others, debuff mobs, heal etc. even without composure/whatever stuff, the job is working still at its core.
    So a RDM without any buffs at all for defense or offense is perfectly capable of functioning at it's core...

    a RUN cant do his task when runes are dispelled: tanking and mitgating magical dmg, hence the reason why Runes became undispellable, the same applies to PUP and maneuvers.
    and at the exact same time RUN and PUP require Maneuvers and Runes, even though Maneuvers take less than 30 seconds to get 3 of them up, Runes only taking 15 seconds.

    If a job's ability to function is what's in question I really don't see how 15 seconds without Runes, which don't get me wrong hurts RUN, is so devastating to the job that it requires an immunity to dispel but at the same time a job like RDM whose power and survival are almost entirely dependant on it's buffs , gets no resistance or immunity for anything it has. A PUP loses a lot with Maneuvers too, their automaton from what I understand becomes much less useful during this period as a result but in all honesty if we're going to go down the road of saying it's only keeping buffs that are necessary for the job to function, do these qualify? I mean it's not like the Automaton is being dispelled, only it's Maneuvers, which take all of 30sec to reactivate before you continue on your way. I use these time frames because they are small waits, if you want to talk about dispel being important as a debuff then I'd think making an Automaton weaker would be one no? The same for removing some of RUN's MEVA and JAs for a short time? I mean we already have NMs that reset all JA timers which effectively destroys the differences between jobs in most ways such as a RUN's abilities as a whole.

    The point I'm trying to get at right here is that anyone can argue just about any buff isn't necessary to the job. If Runes are necessary to RUN and Maneuvers are necessary to PUP then in what way aren't RDM's buffs necessary to RDM? My job doesn't simply lose DMG when I'm dispelled, I lose the ability to live. Protect makes up a good 1/4th or so of my DEF, Phalanx aids in my damage reduction greatly, bar-spells can mean the difference between a spell killing me and only taking me to half health, it's a clear matter of life and death with these buffs in some situations. What if I'm in a backline situation? Refresh can be an important buff, if MP is too low and I get hit with it I can lose my greatest source of MP, not to mention increased recast timers due to Haste II's removal, the fact I likely have to rebuff the entire party with spells that cost tons of MP like Haste II's 70 MP, and so on. If we're going to talk about what's required for a job in terms of the job still working at it's core you have to assume what things are grouped in here and aren't. RUN with or without Runes is still a magic tank, it still has high MDB from traits, it still has MDT in gear form, the only things it's missing are the JAs it has which are 15 seconds away, much closer than the minutes it'd take if it were a JA reset.

    You're both defining these things as somewhat definitive and necessary for the job and yet at the exact same time saying nothing RDM has for instance is in the same category, to me, that's extremely false.
    (0)

  10. #30
    Player Damane's Avatar
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    Damane
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    Phoenix
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demonjustin View Post
    So a RDM without any buffs at all for defense or offense is perfectly capable of functioning at it's core...

    and at the exact same time RUN and PUP require Maneuvers and Runes, even though Maneuvers take less than 30 seconds to get 3 of them up, Runes only taking 15 seconds.

    If a job's ability to function is what's in question I really don't see how 15 seconds without Runes, which don't get me wrong hurts RUN, is so devastating to the job that it requires an immunity to dispel but at the same time a job like RDM whose power and survival are almost entirely dependant on it's buffs , gets no resistance or immunity for anything it has. A PUP loses a lot with Maneuvers too, their automaton from what I understand becomes much less useful during this period as a result but in all honesty if we're going to go down the road of saying it's only keeping buffs that are necessary for the job to function, do these qualify? I mean it's not like the Automaton is being dispelled, only it's Maneuvers, which take all of 30sec to reactivate before you continue on your way. I use these time frames because they are small waits, if you want to talk about dispel being important as a debuff then I'd think making an Automaton weaker would be one no? The same for removing some of RUN's MEVA and JAs for a short time? I mean we already have NMs that reset all JA timers which effectively destroys the differences between jobs in most ways such as a RUN's abilities as a whole.

    The point I'm trying to get at right here is that anyone can argue just about any buff isn't necessary to the job. If Runes are necessary to RUN and Maneuvers are necessary to PUP then in what way aren't RDM's buffs necessary to RDM? My job doesn't simply lose DMG when I'm dispelled, I lose the ability to live. Protect makes up a good 1/4th or so of my DEF, Phalanx aids in my damage reduction greatly, bar-spells can mean the difference between a spell killing me and only taking me to half health, it's a clear matter of life and death with these buffs in some situations. What if I'm in a backline situation? Refresh can be an important buff, if MP is too low and I get hit with it I can lose my greatest source of MP, not to mention increased recast timers due to Haste II's removal, the fact I likely have to rebuff the entire party with spells that cost tons of MP like Haste II's 70 MP, and so on. If we're going to talk about what's required for a job in terms of the job still working at it's core you have to assume what things are grouped in here and aren't. RUN with or without Runes is still a magic tank, it still has high MDB from traits, it still has MDT in gear form, the only things it's missing are the JAs it has which are 15 seconds away, much closer than the minutes it'd take if it were a JA reset.

    You're both defining these things as somewhat definitive and necessary for the job and yet at the exact same time saying nothing RDM has for instance is in the same category, to me, that's extremely false.
    all the buffs you mentioned loosing, apply to other jobs too, a PUP SAM RUN etc withotu protect V etc will take just as much dmg as your RDM etc. while those buffs are vital, they arent a necessery core part to fullfill your jobs duty when being displled, this is the big difference between runes and maneuvers and the buffs you listed. Afflatus Solace is a nice buff, but a whm can heal very good without it, yes they loose potency, but they can still cure. a PUP or RUN loose their core mechanic/ability when they loose runes/maneuvers, this is the big difference, you can reaccess all your spells/abilitys when your buffs are gone, PUP and RUN? not so much they loose Runes and maneuvers and cant access over half of their abilitys or cant control their maton properly.

    example:
    SAM: if SAM wouldnt be able to WS without hasso on, then hasso is a necessity to be active for the job to work at its core function, hence it would be undispellable. But as it is SAMs can WS whenever their TP alow it and have access to all abilitys whenever their timer allows it without hasso. So hasso is a potent buff, but doesnt preserver core functions of a job.

    another example:
    if WHM could only cast cures with afflatus Solace on, then AFflatus Solace with be a core function of the job, makeing it a buff to be undispellable. But Whm can cast cures fine without afflatus solace, makeing it a potent buff that can be dispelled and not a vital/core definign buff.
    (0)

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