Special Effects that shouldn't be dispelable

[Zeargi]

This has kind derailed a bit from what i started. I honestly don't mind a full removal, but what I do mind is that certain abilities that have long cast timers or are some what needed, shouldn't be effected. Like I mentioned earlier, Yonin and Innin are stances for NIN, similar to the Runes of a RUN or SCH's Light and Dark Arts. Also Sublimation is a conversion effect of HP, so I feel that if they can't make that non-dispelable, then it needs to change to the moment it's effect ends the MP Recovery effect takes place. Composure is a mental focus that extends the effects, you shouldn't be able to to dispel someones focus T_T. I'm not sure if the WHM's Abilities can be dispelled, but if they can, they shouldn't be D:<

[Lambtor]

I doubt it. I rarely resist dispel with fealty up

Anyways though there is a bit of inherent imbalance when a monster can take off 15 buffs from everyone in range yet players are reduced to dispelling 1 buff on 1 mob at a time... maybe a limit to how many can be removed or take away the aoeing

RDMs need Dispel II to even this out.

[Camate]

Greetings,

Effects that are not dispellable are currently limited to only those that need to be maintained in order to keep the job functioning as it was designed to -- namely, maneuvers and runes. Of the examples of the abilities given in this thread, many of them have long effect durations, but they are also abilities that grant personal enhancements or shift between attack and defense, and they are not stats that are critical in order to play out the roles of those jobs. Due to this, we do not have any plans at the moment to adjust them so they cannot be dispelled.

[Randnum]

Well, might as well contradict.

As WHM, while Afflatus Solace and Misery are not 'required to play out the roles of those jobs', the 'stance' type ones specifically tilt things in a direction intended to enhance play and make certain things possible. While the obvious point is 'well those things aren't supposed to be possible against these enemies', the argument that at high levels of play, WHM and NIN stances aren't needed to keep the job functioning as it was designed to is to diminish the very design one put such effort into.

I find it hard to argue that PUP needs maneuvers to function at all because you're not completely locking off their functionality, just parts of it. The same goes for WHM, admittedly not so much Yonin and Innin. Ohwell.

[Ramzi]

There should still be a limit to how many effects an enemy can dispel. Having an NM wipe out Protect, Shell, Haste, Corsair rolls, 4-8 Bard songs, bar-spell, active JA's, etc etc after one TP move is a bit silly. I'm thinking Tojil here- yes we have counter measures in that we can stun the move, but that just forces the group into having to take a SCH that can keep up with the stuns. Also, it's incredibly frustrating, and counter-productive to have songs/effects under 1 hour ability like soul voice be wiped out because they cannot be re-applied for a whole hour. That's just poor game design.

[Zeargi]

Greetings,

Effects that are not dispellable are currently limited to only those that need to be maintained in order to keep the job functioning as it was designed to -- namely, maneuvers and runes. Of the examples of the abilities given in this thread, many of them have long effect durations, but they are also abilities that grant personal enhancements or shift between attack and defense, and they are not stats that are critical in order to play out the roles of those jobs. Due to this, we do not have any plans at the moment to adjust them so they cannot be dispelled.

Yonin, Innin, Solace, and Misery are things that were added because of certain things were lacking. Yonin was and still is needed for a boost to enmity gain, as NIN lacks the great number of JAs that both PLD and RUN have that can continuously do that. Issekigan only comes into play if you parry, while Sentinel, Shield Bash, Fealty, Palisade, Holy Circle, Invicible, Intervene, Elemental Sforzo, Swipe, Lunge, Liement, Pflug, Gambit, Rayke, Battuta, Vallation/Valiance Swordplay, One for All, Vivacious Pulse, Odyllic Subterfuge can be used at any time, plus Both have Flash and Phalanx. I'm excluding the the Gekka/Crusade as it's something that both jobs share, like wise I'm not including sub JAs because those are open to everyone. If you want people to play this role and play it to it's fullest then it needs to be able to maintain the role it's needed for. Utsusemi generates some hate, but not a nearly the amount of Foil, Flash, and Reprisal, and the enmity loss from Shadows consumed. The next problem is that Unlike PLD and RUN, NIN is reliant on its stock of Ninja tools, so when PLD/RUN lose Crusade isn't that be of a thing, because that can just recast it, and with a BRD or RDM that can cast Refresh (Or a RUN just cast it on themselves), they have no real MP woes. Next is the WHM's 'stances' these are big as well, because you've attached several spells to these, Cura, Esuna, Auspice, Sacrifice, Bar-Spells, and even the Cure Spells extra effect. That extra Stoneskin can sometime be the deciding factor against some of these NMs' Super moves.

[Karbuncle]

Well, might as well contradict.

As WHM, while Afflatus Solace and Misery are not 'required to play out the roles of those jobs', the 'stance' type ones specifically tilt things in a direction intended to enhance play and make certain things possible. While the obvious point is 'well those things aren't supposed to be possible against these enemies', the argument that at high levels of play, WHM and NIN stances aren't needed to keep the job functioning as it was designed to is to diminish the very design one put such effort into.

I find it hard to argue that PUP needs maneuvers to function at all because you're not completely locking off their functionality, just parts of it. The same goes for WHM, admittedly not so much Yonin and Innin. Ohwell.

Apologies i must disagree. Maneuvers control almost everything the Puppet does, Maneuvers allow a PUP to control rather or not a Puppet can provoke or flash, things I'd argue are required for a Tank frame to Tank... It controls what weaponskills the automaton uses, its ability to properly prioritize healing, and so forth. Without Maneuvers, a Puppet is almost entirely useless, and the attachments weak.

Now, what I'm saying now requires the knowledge that PUP was originally not intended to be a Melee job. When PUP was introduced, It was suppose to be back-line job that used its Automaton as its main source of damage or support... which is why it was on butloads of mage armor (SE expected it to be a "PUP/WHM" kind of deal, not become a Melee job, which is also why its highest combat skill at one point was like a C+). You can find this information straight for Squares mouth somewhere, I wish i could remember where...

So, at the time of inception, Maneuvers were he soul of PUPs job, before PUP become a Melee-job with a Pet, as opposed to what it was intended to be, a Pet with a support master. On the opposite spectrum, Afflatus Solace and Misery only add enhancements to WHMs abilities... Without Solace/Misery a WHM can still cure and perform its job just fine, -Na, erase, cure, and so forth. Afflatus makes it easier, but it does not define the job.

In the same respect, Composure can make a RDMs job easier, especially solo, and Yonin/Innin make a NIN a much better DD or tank, but neither are required for the job to perform well, and all RDM, NIN and WHM got away without these abilities for years.

[Zeargi]

Now, what I'm saying now requires the knowledge that PUP was originally not intended to be a Melee job. When PUP was introduced, It was suppose to be back-line job that used its Automaton as its main source of damage or support... which is why it was on butloads of mage armor (SE expected it to be a "PUP/WHM" kind of deal, not become a Melee job, which is also why its highest combat skill at one point was like a C+). You can find this information straight for Squares mouth somewhere, I wish i could remember where...

In the same respect, Composure can make a RDMs job easier, especially solo, and Yonin/Innin make a NIN a much better DD or tank, but neither are required for the job to perform well, and all RDM, NIN and WHM got away without these abilities for years.

Likewise, in the same concept, NIN wasn't suppose to be a Tank, it's how we the players used it that changed the view. As you can see with how an NPC plays the class; NIN Mobs keep their distance and rely on Ninjutsu and Ranged Combat for their primary means of attack, this is the same AI that BLM and RNG mobs use. But with the introduction of Trusts: Gessho's AI is completely different than the other Yagudo. We changed the usage for Ninja and SE gave those abilities to them to make up for the needs that came from them. So, If SE want NIN to be a tank still it needs a way to main the enmity generation that RUN and PLD have.

[Demonjustin]

Runes and Maneuvers take a few seconds to put back up, most of the other ones mentioned are a minute or more. Don't get me wrong, they are important, but we're talking two totally different levels of waiting to get them back to what they were at before hand.

[Demonjustin]

Greetings,

Effects that are not dispellable are currently limited to only those that need to be maintained in order to keep the job functioning as it was designed to -- namely, maneuvers and runes. Of the examples of the abilities given in this thread, many of them have long effect durations, but they are also abilities that grant personal enhancements or shift between attack and defense, and they are not stats that are critical in order to play out the roles of those jobs. Due to this, we do not have any plans at the moment to adjust them so they cannot be dispelled.

So let me get this straight... You've no intentions on limiting the number of buffs removed by a monster's attacks, you've no intentions on making more buffs removable, and you're perfectly ok with jobs like RDM losing all of their buffs even if it means the job goes from being functional, to a piece of wet tissue paper with a sword made a wood. At the exact same time, you're not willing to give a job like RDM the ability to dispel two, not twenty, not five, two buffs from NMs.

You've got a job whose position is never really stated. You give us buffs, you give us debuffs, Haste II & the other spells that came with it are signs of a direction we're meant to go in. The gear we've gotten the last few months, are signs of what direction we're meant to go in. At this very same time, you're telling me that a monster is supposed to have the power to destroy my job's ability in combat, because yes, that's what Dispel does to RDM if it ever even comes close to the frontlines, buffs are it's most important asset. You're also telling me that my debuffs, the thing I do better than any other job supposedly, are also not allowed to be anywhere near as powerful as a monsters, nor at their full power against the most deadly of monsters where it's truly needed most.

In effect, this monsters are allowed to use debuffs like Amnesia, Weakness, Doom, and other effects that can't be removed, on top of having the power to not only dispel but absorb all buffs a player currently has for itself, while the best debuffer in the game can't do any of that to anything at all. Consequently, the best buffer can't prevent their buffs from being removed either, no buffer can regardless of how good they are.

To me, it's extremely annoying how unbalanced the buff/debuff paradigm is. Monsters don't really buff at all, they debuff the **** out of us to no end with things like Slow, Weakness, Doom, Encumberance, and so on. At the same time, we don't really debuff at all, we buff ourselves with BRDs, CORs, GEOs, self buffs, so on. Debuffs for players aren't powerful, buffs for monsters aren't powerful either in most cases, but the opposites are extremely powerful, and in a lot of cases it's what leads to us zerging everything. We have extreme amounts of power, and they have the power to destroy us easily, so we kill them as fast as we can, don't even try to weaken them, and hope we come out the winning team. In my opinion enemies should buff themselves a bit more, and at the same time players should be allowed to have powerful debuffs alongside it, so one side isn't always buffed to the teeth and the other side always trying to tear them down and use overpowered abilities to restrict things from them till they die.