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  1. #41
    Player
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    146
    Quote Originally Posted by Camate View Post
    Hello, everyone!

    Additionally, similar to thief, we are looking into adding abilities to other jobs that will allow them to steal or reduce enmity from other players.[/list]
    That whole sentence got me interested. I'm looking forward to it and i hope DNC is included. =)
    (0)

  2. #42
    Player Karbuncle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    4,314
    waitwaitwaitwait... Looking into other jobs being able to steal/reduce enmity? from other players? I missed that part.

    I've got mixed feelings about that. One one hand I have to think "Maybe they'll give this ability to some of the less useful jobs, like SMN, GEO, RUN, and so forth...", on the other hand I have to think "Do they even know what they want THF to do anymore?"

    Enmity control was the one thing they wanted THF to do well, it was basically the job description last time they went over a manifesto of job adjustments... "Masters of the flow of battle" or something. Then Decoy shot came out and now THF is laughable compared to RNG anyway... might as well throw "Enmity master" in the "Trash Bin of what we want THF to do" next to "Deal Damage" and "Treasure Hunter".

    Wonder what our next THF job manifesto description will be...

    "Master of soloing 75 content for gil, we're looking to give THF the ability to lay on the ground and cry deeply at its utter lack of uses in the game! Unfortunately programming the tears with just the right amount of crushed dreams from years of half-updates and wasted potential is taking longer than we expected, but its well on the way for 2017"
    No but srsly, in all good humor... I'm hoping if these abilities are to be given away, its in low number and to jobs that actually need them... not something like WHM, WAR, MNK, SAM, etc... jobs who already have it good.
    (2)
    Last edited by Karbuncle; 08-01-2014 at 08:03 AM.

  3. #43
    Player Martel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    253
    Character
    Martel
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Sekhmet View Post
    ok, well maybe I'm a bit slow on the uptake, but can you explain to me why even with these enmity tools, which I do use btw, a single mnk using 1 WS rips hate off of a Run, and the Run can't get it back? That have to do with the enmity cap as well? or are the mnks generating VE so fast that it overwelms the 1:30 minute, 3 minute and 5 minute timers of these enmity generating abilities?
    Let me rephrase this. RUN's enmity generation abilities are sufficient(and still better than PLD's), in situations where having tank is viable at all. And, last I checked, Melee+Tank isn't one of those(not that, I admit, I've tried that lately.)

    And giving you provoke isn't going to change that.

    Although things did seem to get a bit better after the dmg enmity nerfs. But you'd still hit cap in fairly short order, even if you did stay ahead of DDs. But while dmg enmity has been reduced, the amount of dmg players deal has shot up again since then. The WS and SC adjustments being notable factors. I think it's still better than it was pre dmg enmity nerf, But I'm not really inclined to try to model DPS vs JA/spell spam atm. Even assuming I had the dmg enmity modifiers for high lvl mobs(which I don't.)

    But now I'm rambling. Anyway, what's needed isn't provoke-esque actions for RUN, or any tank job. What's needed is further, major, adjustments to the enmity system.

    First, address the enmity cap. Because until that changes, it doesn't matter how fast we build enmity, we all get stuck at the same point. Then we get the mob spinning like crazy constantly.

    Second, something needs to be done about dmg enmity(Probably. I haven't really checked in detail to see what a melee DD's enmity generation would be like now, and if a tank can conceivably surpass it) But it's a difficult issue. It's already been adjusted twice. We don't want to nerf it too far, or DD tanking becomes impossible. While I want tanks to have a place, I don't want them to be absolutely required for all content.

    The best idea I've seen for this so far, would be the one in this post. Although I can still see a few potential issues with it, I think it's a pretty good solution.
    (3)

  4. #44
    Player Sekhmet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    31
    Character
    Sekhmet
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    DRK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Martel View Post
    Let me rephrase this. RUN's enmity generation abilities are sufficient(and still better than PLD's), in situations where having tank is viable at all. And, last I checked, Melee+Tank isn't one of those(not that, I admit, I've tried that lately.)

    And giving you provoke isn't going to change that.

    Although things did seem to get a bit better after the dmg enmity nerfs. But you'd still hit cap in fairly short order, even if you did stay ahead of DDs. But while dmg enmity has been reduced, the amount of dmg players deal has shot up again since then. The WS and SC adjustments being notable factors. I think it's still better than it was pre dmg enmity nerf, But I'm not really inclined to try to model DPS vs JA/spell spam atm. Even assuming I had the dmg enmity modifiers for high lvl mobs(which I don't.)

    But now I'm rambling. Anyway, what's needed isn't provoke-esque actions for RUN, or any tank job. What's needed is further, major, adjustments to the enmity system.

    First, address the enmity cap. Because until that changes, it doesn't matter how fast we build enmity, we all get stuck at the same point. Then we get the mob spinning like crazy constantly.

    Second, something needs to be done about dmg enmity(Probably. I haven't really checked in detail to see what a melee DD's enmity generation would be like now, and if a tank can conceivably surpass it) But it's a difficult issue. It's already been adjusted twice. We don't want to nerf it too far, or DD tanking becomes impossible. While I want tanks to have a place, I don't want them to be absolutely required for all content.

    The best idea I've seen for this so far, would be the one in this post. Although I can still see a few potential issues with it, I think it's a pretty good solution.
    Thank you for explaining things for me. I apologize if my response seemed a bit passive-aggresive.
    (1)

  5. #45
    Player Martel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    253
    Character
    Martel
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Sekhmet View Post
    Thank you for explaining things for me. I apologize if my response seemed a bit passive-aggresive.
    You're welcome.

    And let me note that I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting, or asking SE for, more Enmity actions. I just don't think it's strictly speaking necessary. But that doesn't keep me from wanting new toys for PLD... <,<;
    (0)

  6. #46
    Community Rep Grekumah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    349
    Greetings,

    The increase will take place for the cap that is currently in place for “Enmity +” that you can receive from equipment and certain abilities/spells. Many of you are already aware that the current cap for this is 100, but we will be doubling this and increasing the cap to 200.

    Additionally, adjustments to paladin will be made so that Shield Bash, Rampart, and Palisade generate more non-volatile enmity.
    (1)
    Colby "Grekumah" Casaccia - Community Team

  7. #47
    Player Kavik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Sandy
    Posts
    254
    Character
    Kavik
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Grekumah View Post
    Greetings,

    The increase will take place for the cap that is currently in place for “Enmity +” that you can receive from equipment and certain abilities/spells. Many of you are already aware that the current cap for this is 100, but we will be doubling this and increasing the cap to 200.

    Additionally, adjustments to paladin will be made so that Shield Bash, Rampart, and Palisade generate more non-volatile enmity.
    So we'll all still have the same cap. This is greatly disappointing as such it will change only that we can get hate faster, which is better, but this still wont 'fix' anything. I get the sense that the dev team is tired of us complaining about this issue. But as the saying goes, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. So I, at least will continue to squeak. It's all well and good to give pld more ways to generate enmity and the potency there of, but as I, and others have said many times. No matter how fast or how slow a job gets to cap, there will be bouncing around of enmity. I am looking forward to these changes in certain situations where enmity is lost consistently on the DDs. (IE Yorcia delve mega boss). In prolonged battles though, this inevitably brings us to the same conclusion. Please just give pld a Job Trait, Tier v of enmity lost while taking damage or something, which greatly reduces enmity lost when it is taken. So even if the mob hits all the melee and mages and even pld for the same amount, the pld loses 1/3 of the enmity of any other DD taking damage.
    (9)
    FFXI forever! 99 PLD THF DRG DNC WHM SCH BRD BLM BLU BST
    Burtgang Excalibur Aegis Ochain


  8. #48
    Player Lyandra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    26
    Character
    Lyandra
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    BLM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Kavik View Post
    So we'll all still have the same cap. This is greatly disappointing as such it will change only that we can get hate faster, which is better, but this still wont 'fix' anything.
    I could be wrong, but to me it reads like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Grekumah View Post
    The increase will take place for the cap that is currently in place for “Enmity +” that you can receive from equipment and certain abilities/spells. Many of you are already aware that the current cap for this is 100, but we will be doubling this and increasing the cap to 200.
    Meaning that they are not raising the general enmity cap for players at all, but just raising the cap on gear, merits and spells in the Enmity+ category only. Which if that were true then it might actually make holding hate on tanks viable if melee reach the standard 100 enmity cap but only those with "Enmity+" category can go beyond that limit and reach 200 max. I could be wrong but like its been said just raising the cap overall wouldn't do any good (and therefore would be no reason to change anything).
    (0)

  9. #49
    Player Aeron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    137
    Character
    Lanselot
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Grekumah View Post
    Greetings,

    The increase will take place for the cap that is currently in place for “Enmity +” that you can receive from equipment and certain abilities/spells. Many of you are already aware that the current cap for this is 100, but we will be doubling this and increasing the cap to 200.

    Additionally, adjustments to paladin will be made so that Shield Bash, Rampart, and Palisade generate more non-volatile enmity.
    Ok when I first read Camate's post it sounded like he was referring to the total enmity cap which is 10,000 for VE and 10,000 for CE, i guess he wasn't which is really disappointing. The +enmity cap being raised really wont solve anything to be honest. Even with Tank mythics which have between +18 for pld and run to +30 for nin it is still going to be really hard to achieve this +200 enmity with gear and jas/mas unless you are going to adjust how much +enmity the new crusade spell and other equivalent spells give. Right now i can barely get +100 enmity and that's with ilvl gear and crusade so i don't know how you expect us to hit +200 enmity.

    The total enmity cap is what everyone is referring to when they are asking for a cap adjustment not the +enmity gear cap. A scaling cap proportional to mob HP enough so that it would be equal to the amount of dmg necessary to kill it for 6ppl like what dasva said in another thread sounds really good.
    (4)

  10. #50
    Player Mefuki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    224
    Character
    Mefuki
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeron View Post
    A scaling cap proportional to mob HP enough so that it would be equal to the amount of dmg necessary to kill it for 6ppl like what dasva said in another thread sounds really good.
    Quote for emphasis. Seriously, Dasva has a very good idea for how to deal with the enmity problem.
    (1)
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5cfpeJGwi2KhQjNvCkk5Cg

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