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  1. #11
    Player Aeron's Avatar
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    Oct 2011
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    137
    Character
    Lanselot
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    Increasing the cap on gear +enmity which is incredibly hard to cap and not all that useful to begin with... great this completely solves the problem of everyone having capped hate the entire fight <.<
    Lol dasva, this is exactly what I was thinking when I read the response. Devs please listen to us we ACTUALLY play this game, +enmity as a means of just increasing the amount of enmity generated per action does nothing for hate capped situations. Now if you made it so that +/- enmity gear effected the decay rate of VE for -enmity and for +enmity gave a given amount of enmity per sec that would actually do something. The -enmity effect on the decay rate would have to be significant though and you would probably want to make the amount of -enmity needed a lot too. Given that crusade is +30 enmity if the ratio of enmity per sec gained was 1:1 then that would mean someone would only need another 30 enmity to lock VE which is really what is needed.
    (0)

  2. #12
    Player Byrth's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,172
    Character
    Byrth
    World
    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeron View Post
    I have a 70 enmity build that I use with crusade to get 100 enmity which should mean that I'm not losing CE.
    Got any proof? I have seen no testing on the extent to which Enmity reduces CE loss.

    And yeah, other jobs will still pull hate at capped enmity. However, they will lose CE and the monster will turn back to the PLD if they take substantial damage (even if the damage was AoE). So melees will need to be able to survive all attacks, but they wouldn't need to be able to tank necessarily. The problem right now is that PLDs often lose CE at about the same rate as the melee when there's a big AoE attack, and then melees gain it back faster.


    Also, between Enlight and Swordplay, PLD/RUN is pretty good in the accuracy department. Its Acc won't hold up in VD fights, but I have yet to find a D fight where Madrigals + Sushi + Enlight/Swordplay wasn't sufficient to cap my hit rate even in my DT TP set.
    (2)

  3. #13
    Player Aeron's Avatar
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    Oct 2011
    Posts
    137
    Character
    Lanselot
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Byrth View Post
    Got any proof? I have seen no testing on the extent to which Enmity reduces CE loss.

    And yeah, other jobs will still pull hate at capped enmity. However, they will lose CE and the monster will turn back to the PLD if they take substantial damage (even if the damage was AoE). So melees will need to be able to survive all attacks, but they wouldn't need to be able to tank necessarily. The problem right now is that PLDs often lose CE at about the same rate as the melee when there's a big AoE attack, and then melees gain it back faster.


    Also, between Enlight and Swordplay, PLD/RUN is pretty good in the accuracy department. Its Acc won't hold up in VD fights, but I have yet to find a D fight where Madrigals + Sushi + Enlight/Swordplay wasn't sufficient to cap my hit rate even in my DT TP set.
    The key word in there is should. I know some of the piece I was using have direct CE loss reduction values like burtgang, creed cuisses, and creed collar and that's on top of +70 enmity from gear.

    Jpwiki says lvl99 Burtgang is -20%, Creed Cuisses +2 is 10%, Creed Collar is 5% on the CE loss reduction. So that's 35% CE loss reduction on top of 100 enmity(70gear 30 crusade).

    That is a completely false statement seeing as how I take significantly less dmg (meaning I lose less enmity right there) from AOEs then melees do and with the set I mentioned even if I wasn't at a true 100% CE loss reduction im still at a huge reduction. The main issue is the rate at which melees gain it back more then any other factor and how low their attack delay can get.

    If you are able to maintain buff then yes acc can be pretty good but in some fights especially in delve 2 with buffs being constantly dispelled acc becomes and issue which was mainly what I was referring to.
    (0)
    Last edited by Aeron; 07-19-2014 at 03:34 PM.

  4. #14
    Player Damane's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    715
    Character
    Damane
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Balloon View Post
    This is what I was getting from this as well, and honestly, it's not going to be enough.

    I'd rather see Enmity decay from attacks and damage at a steady rate, higher for non-tank jobs.

    Currently, the enmity gained from a 5000 dmg ws, which isn't rare, generates a lot of enmity quickly. Then white damage.

    I'd be curious to know if the standard damage multiplier for this is adjusted for ilvl equipment, presumably if it does then a 5000 dmg ws generates 0.3*80*5000/161.5 (Though I'm assuming that the standard dmg is floored), or 743 enmity/10,000. Attack speed for party content is insane, ws rate is insane, so capping CE is trivial. Getting hit for 1100dmg only resets this by 1042. Basically, it'd cap again in seconds.

    The enmity changes have been half measures and they need a proper fix.

    What I'd LOVE at this point, what I think is desperately needed, it some kind of sub-jobbable way to shed Enmity, like Enmity douse. Because hell, black mage does NOT need enmity douse, but most other jobs absolutely do.
    i dont like the bold part, the last thing i want is for melee tanking to be destroyed. The one (above many others) thing I love about FFXI is that it doesnt need the holy trifecta of jobs through everything. Destroying melee tanking would do more harm then good (or would you like to shout 3920392 hours for a capable tank?). affect tank enmity holding yes, reduce the capability for melees to hold hate? no thx!

    destroying melee enmity would steer up another whole level of bullshit and problems. another solution would be to make super jump a lvl 49 ability (that would force melees tough to sub /drg ¬.¬)
    (2)
    Last edited by Damane; 07-19-2014 at 06:35 PM.

  5. #15
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    Aug 2011
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    I considered a mage a non-tank job in this case? They'd have ways to reduce CE too.

    Melee jobs at the minute just generate enmity in a way that Mage jobs can't really equal, A cure 5 can generate anyway between 200/350 to 400/700 depending on how much enmity - gear you have during cast, and a single swing for 330 damage generates 49CE/147VE. Seems kinda trivial, but think about how many attack rounds can go off in that time, and then weaponskills on top of that. Caps crazy fast.

    In my googling and reading Kanicans livejournal I found out that Coronach was a static 80CE/240VE. I guess I kinda knew intuitively that Coronach was insanely useful, but that just seems silly broke.

    Anyway, that was just a quick idea, I just think something needs to be changed drastically, these are half measures.
    (0)

  6. #16
    Player Damane's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    715
    Character
    Damane
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Balloon View Post
    I considered a mage a non-tank job in this case? They'd have ways to reduce CE too.

    Melee jobs at the minute just generate enmity in a way that Mage jobs can't really equal, A cure 5 can generate anyway between 200/350 to 400/700 depending on how much enmity - gear you have during cast, and a single swing for 330 damage generates 49CE/147VE. Seems kinda trivial, but think about how many attack rounds can go off in that time, and then weaponskills on top of that. Caps crazy fast.

    In my googling and reading Kanicans livejournal I found out that Coronach was a static 80CE/240VE. I guess I kinda knew intuitively that Coronach was insanely useful, but that just seems silly broke.

    Anyway, that was just a quick idea, I just think something needs to be changed drastically, these are half measures.
    cures dont generate that much enmity anymore especiall with the tranquil heart job trait, the amount is pitiful since they adressed enmity values when adoulin was released.
    (1)

  7. #17
    Player Aeron's Avatar
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    Oct 2011
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    137
    Character
    Lanselot
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Balloon View Post
    I considered a mage a non-tank job in this case? They'd have ways to reduce CE too.

    Melee jobs at the minute just generate enmity in a way that Mage jobs can't really equal, A cure 5 can generate anyway between 200/350 to 400/700 depending on how much enmity - gear you have during cast, and a single swing for 330 damage generates 49CE/147VE. Seems kinda trivial, but think about how many attack rounds can go off in that time, and then weaponskills on top of that. Caps crazy fast.

    In my googling and reading Kanicans livejournal I found out that Coronach was a static 80CE/240VE. I guess I kinda knew intuitively that Coronach was insanely useful, but that just seems silly broke. Anyway, that was just a quick idea, I just think something needs to be changed drastically, these are half measures.
    No "seems" about it, it is broken from an enmity stand point. Rng has a strangle hold on enmity control right now. The Devs need to correct this huge imbalance in the system right now. Ppl want to cry out how broken ochain is on block rate, imo Coronach is just as bad only its a ws that can be spammed.
    (3)
    Last edited by Aeron; 07-19-2014 at 07:50 PM.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damane View Post
    cures dont generate that much enmity anymore especiall with the tranquil heart job trait, the amount is pitiful since they adressed enmity values when adoulin was released.
    You're right, I was using old values for Cure 5. The new adjusted ones ones are 300/600

    With Tranquil Heart it'd be something like (300CE/600VE) *0.5(-50 Gear Cap)*0.75(Tranquil Heart) .. or 112CE/225VE. Point is you can't really generate enough hate with cures to even compete with damage generated enmity.

    Hell, I didn't even factor the effects of Divine Benison there, and I should.

    If the CE Modifier seems to increase how it always has then it should be at 40/79 for cures using the hp cured formula. It doesn't work like this. It was changed to 40/170.

    Edit: Fixes.
    (1)
    Last edited by Balloon; 07-19-2014 at 08:11 PM.

  9. #19
    Player Aeron's Avatar
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    Oct 2011
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    137
    Character
    Lanselot
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    I just did a test with +100 enmity and I can confirm that +enmity at least for CE reduction is not a 1:1% ratio. I used one mob and had me and a partner cast blank gaze on it while I took dmg and they casted libra. We watched as Segagamers enmity % rose relative to mine with the only difference being that I was taking dmg meaning that +100enmity doesn't completely reduce CE loss. Libra doesn't produce enmity so it had no effect on the test and I had to use crusade which it the enmity value was more would have only made it more difficult of sega to claim. Instead with each casting of libra sega relative enmity % rose at a pretty consistent rate eventually pulling hate. What the actually ratio is im not certain.
    (0)

  10. #20
    Player Damane's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    715
    Character
    Damane
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    the fact that they nerfed rune enchantment enmity to 0 after the last update doestn help tanking much either ¬.¬ (just because they made them undispellable, wohoo...)
    (1)

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