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  1. #1
    Player Adventurer's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
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    35
    Character
    Leylong
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99

    A New Era of Elitism.

    I do hope the developers and localization teams reading this knows the meaning behind the word "Elitism". It's not a term used only in FFXI but in real world circumstances as well.

    Many people now days talk about how easy this, that and the other is but I must disagree in SOME regards. Elitism used to be a huge problem in FFXI, bottlenecking many players out of being able to participate in content and now it seems to be rearing it's head once more.

    Anymore, there is very little content for "groups" of people to do and for this content, unless you have certain pieces of gear you won't just be considered "gimp" but in this day and time, no one will even use you. I will give a couple of quick examples.

    Let's say you're a Bard. Anymore, you are expected to be able to at LEAST cast 3 songs and many want you to have Daurdabla which allows you to cast 4 spells. To even get 3 songs up you must spend many millions of gil.

    For Paladin, you are expected to have an Aegis and possibly an Ochain as well. At WORST case you are expected to have a Priwen which can cost many millions of gil.

    These are a couple of many examples that exist like this. Many people are blinded by the fact that many things became easier without looking at exactly how the game has evolved and what problems, while in different form still exist.

    Once upon a time I could devote many hours a day playing this game and finally got to an "ultimate" point on my character, this was all lost effort once the level cap was raised. I'm not here to cry about that, but since then my life has changed and I have become one of the more "casual" players. I cannot devote hours of work per day to farming, doing dynamis and cannot always devote set amounts of time to events, because of that, whenever I think "I would like to play X_JOB" I am reminded that it would take too much effort to be able to take it to a point where it could be used in a event that presents a group with any bit of a challenge. I end up feeling defeated and just tend to log off.

    Oddly, back in the day, many years ago there was less of a gap between the best gear in the game and things you could buy right off the auction house for not much gil. It was more of "You get 2% more haste on this" and "You get 5 more accuracy on that" and "You get 3 more STR on that." If you were smart and put some effort into it, you could gear yourself plenty good enough to participate in events and be useful while upgrading further.

    Again, even though there are some nice options out there, there is a huge gap between what people consider "Delve worthy" and battle worthy jobs, who are capable of actually taking on a challenge and people who do not have the options to get such outstanding gear.

    I'm not asking to be the best by any means, I just wish there was less of a gap, where people could have fun with making multiple jobs useful "end game" that they could use in events without many months worth of effort.

    Back in the day, if you had a Hauberk or a Scorpion Harness and a Walarha Turban, matched with some items you could buy off the auction house for not too much and mixed with personal skill you could be useful. Anymore, it doesn't seem it be the case for as I noted, events that require a team and give you a challenge.
    (20)
    Last edited by Adventurer; 07-09-2014 at 11:18 AM.

  2. #2
    Player Karbuncle's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    4,314
    I see what you're saying here, the gap between some 117 and 119 armor is pretty decent, and it can make a difference. Still only a handful of jobs suffer greatly from this, namely the ones you mentioned... BRD, PLD, and a close third, RNG. Other jobs can get away with 119 weapons, DD especially, and semi-compitent gear at or around 115-117 which can be obtained through a couple hours of Spark grinding.

    That said, 119 weapons are a matter of either time or gil. The gil ones can be obtained with little effort. Can spend an hour in dynamis and have one within a couple days... which is leaps above the old days. Anyway, I myself have taken time off FFXI, a few times in my life, either because the demands of my job or because lack of friends to play with :I. I'd like to say this, not to take away from your argument, but more as advice from someone who has done the same. If you can't devote enough time to obtain a 119 armor because of work restrictions, take a small break, a few months, and come back when the content is easier to access. I did many a time.

    There comes a time in our lives when we have to admit we're getting older, and don't have the time we had in our youth, and I think SE is really adjusting content to compensate for that, and doing a fine job. Elitism still exists, but it always will, and it feels about the same to me, back then it was Merit-parties looking 3 hours for a BRD, now its /shout events looking 3 hours for a BRD. I'm thankful they added the charity119 3 song harp that only takes time/gil to get, not decades in Abyssea.

    Anyway, the gist of what I'm saying is, I agree with what you're saying, I just want to provide another look at it... I think SE is doing a good job compensating for the fact most of us have grown up, but also trying to keep it challenging. not to be offensive, but some people enjoy a little time-sink and challenge in their MMO, I think SE has hit a decent balance as of now though.
    (6)

  3. #3
    Player Dragomair's Avatar
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    Jun 2013
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    105
    Character
    Dragomair
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Honestly, the only jobs that really *need* decent gear in any content (besides new delve) are PLD and BRD. (And even BRD JSE harp isn't hard to get.)
    And as many people state every day when one of these threads are posted, it's Final Fantasy XI. You can play more than one job.
    Don't have the time/money/whatever to play/gear a job? Pick a new one or find a group of friends who can help you get to a place where you can be geared appropriately.
    (0)

  4. #4
    Player Zarchery's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    1,412
    Character
    Zarchery
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Priwen and Terpander cost money, but money is so easy to get. These are the casual alternatives to Ochain and Daurdabla. People say "I'm busy! I don't have time for this!" Well here's the thing... you don't have to do it all at once. Players here have years to get stuff done, you can do a little bit at a time. But that point aside, it's an MMORPG. They're traditionally more time consuming. If you can't or don't want to spend a lot of time on it, go play Tetris or Angry Birds or something.

    And like Dragonmair said, if you don't want to put the time into gearing these jobs, don't play them. Or don't go hog-wild about gearing them. Do other stuff. Or do this stuff on lowered difficulty settings. People play PLD and BRD sometimes because they like them but often because they know that those jobs are so important to parties, and they want to have in demand jobs. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a poorly geared, random melee job that you put little effort into gearing, then expect strangers to bend over backwards to invite you to do difficult content with.

    What you call "elitism" is just having the skills and equipment to do a difficult task. You see the same thing in the real world. Google is a pioneer in the tech sector because it offers great compensation packages and has rigid hiring standards so that it can attract the best developers and engineers in the field. You can't be a so-so programmer and work for Google. You could find work elsewhere in the field. And it's just like that in FFXI. You can't do Ark Angel MR on Very Difficult without 6 exceptionally skilled and well geared players. You could do her on Very Easy or Easy or Normal. But people think this is unfair for some reason.
    (7)

  5. #5
    Player VoiceMemo's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    550
    Character
    Voicememo
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    I would like to provide a counterpoint to what is called "Elitism".

    I have been career bard for some 9+ years and have strived to be the best bard possible, covering all situations. Fast song casting, high potency to songs, number of songs, support curing/na'ing, MACC, etc.

    Many of you point out that BRD and PLD seem to be the exceptions to the rule where you DO need better gear to perform well, which I do agree with. However the point I'm bringing up is that yes you can level and play every job, but if you level a job and play it, but don't really want to be the job. This player will still not perform as well as someone that DOES want to play the job. It were akin to if I trie to play paladin, which I have no desire to. I would clearly not perform as well as a main paladin would.

    Look at the 11th census http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/gui...nsus/11/2.html Bard is listed #15 with only 1.23% of the playerbase playing it. Now SE doesn't exactly say how this percentage is calculated, but I'm guessing it looks at which job each character is on the most and only those that are that job(bard) a greater time than all others are counted.

    This is why I was upset over the JSE 3 song option, and now the +2 all song flute. SE is slowly widdling away the difference between a top end bard and ones that get these instruments. Based on the census it's clear that it takes a special mindset to be main bard over all other jobs. But with SE slowly closing the gap between High end brd(what you might call elitist) and one that has these types of instruments, that to me is a slap in the face by SE. We're not getting gimped yes but we put in so much effort to get to the power we are and SE is releasing these new instruments without also boosting out power.

    This is why I am in favor of Massacre elegy being only accessed if you have completed 119 Carnwenhan, 99 Gjallarhorn, AND 99 Daurdabla. Since its 100% slow it would set those that have accomplished this feat of all top bard instruments/weapons.

    What others call elitism I call pride in the job. Striving to be best you can be. That being said I do like being able to do what other bards can't. I've always said with REM does come with it some arrogance, but in my opinion that is your right for accomplishing such a feat.

    I've also helped other bards with gear, many bards have come asking advice on what gear they should get, or order of songs, etc.

    So I ask again SE please remember those of us who DO go after the best possible gear for their job. We would like some buffs too. I think everyone would agree they would rather get something, versus being left out and given nothing. (Referencing the no 119 for Sheild, Horn, or Harp)
    (4)

  6. #6
    Player Adventurer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    35
    Character
    Leylong
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    I think people here are missing a huge point. Elitism is fine, yes, it will always exist, I'm okay with that. Yes, there will always be those better than I am at these jobs because I really do not have the time to devote anymore to be the best. I also took a break for more than a year from this game and do want to play it again. My main job for many years was Paladin. It was the first job I ever took to 75 many years ago when the only expansion was Zilart and a PLD had to leech off of manaburn parties in KRT. I put many years of effort into being the best and got very close, I never got an Aegis though. Point being, all that time put in went up in smoke at some point. Whatever. But, I would still like to do difficult content by gearing it up to a point where no, I'm not the best but I can certainly tango. Again, people mention skill. Yep, I'm plenty confident in that on Paladin, but there's nothing I can do with that without an Ochain and an Aegis.

    There should definitely be a reward for those who put in the extra mile BUT (and here's the kicker) it shouldn't be so much that it leaves people out who are willing to learn the job, be skilled in the job, spend a amount of time gearing the job and actually be able to play it without devoting many hours a day for months to it. In most MMO's, including olden-days FFXI, those challenging fights existed to get you better and better by the win. Now it's JUST a huge time sink, to be able to actually finally do something worth a bit of a challenge. There's a difference in raising a bar and widening a gap.
    (1)

  7. #7
    Player Aeron's Avatar
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    Oct 2011
    Posts
    137
    Character
    Lanselot
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    I really wish ppl would stop making threads like this. They give the devs a really false sense that their adjustments aren't working when they are. Priwen is a perfectly capable shield. Beatific shield +1 is really good as well. If you are talking about doing D content the devs have more then accommodated you in that department with regards to a shields that can get the job done. Now I understand min-maxing stats and all that but VD is where the line is drawn. If you don't have the best gear you're going to get stomped plain and simple. If you think that Priwen is difficult to get then that's really your problem , there are plenty of ppl in the game that can make the relatively easily that's really why I cant simpithize. Its ppl like this that come on this forum and complain about how its too hard to do content and why R/E shields, horn and harp have not gotten their looooooooooong over due 119 upgrades.

    Oh just on a side note. Any body who claims to main pld that is not even willing to put in the effort to make a RELIC-type shield doesn't deserve to be a pld. You only have to get ochain to lvl 90 for it to be effective. The only other empyrean that you can say about that is the harp and really with the JSE harp that's a moot point. Make a damm ochain then use that to make gil to buy currency to make an aegis. Its going to take some time longer then a week if you don't play everyday I know strange concept but once you get it youll be able to play the job on VD content and do delve most likely depending on your other gear.
    (2)
    Last edited by Aeron; 07-10-2014 at 02:24 AM.

  8. #8
    Player Randnum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    70
    Character
    Risae
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by VoiceMemo View Post
    This is why I was upset over the JSE 3 song option, and now the +2 all song flute. SE is slowly widdling away the difference between a top end bard and ones that get these instruments. Based on the census it's clear that it takes a special mindset to be main bard over all other jobs. But with SE slowly closing the gap between High end brd(what you might call elitist) and one that has these types of instruments, that to me is a slap in the face by SE. We're not getting gimped yes but we put in so much effort to get to the power we are and SE is releasing these new instruments without also boosting out power.
    Maybe only 1.23% of the playerbase plays BRD seriously because they don't have the time to get all the gear required for people to actually 'let them play Bard'.

    I'm just pointing out that one could have the MINDSET for Bard, but be unable to participate in the content because you don't have the years of 'supplies'. That's why career Bards like you get 'slapped in the face'. So that people who are like you in spirit but have NOT got years to invest to catchup with you, can still be seen as useful Bards.

    Maybe there's no solution that would make you happy. Maybe reputation or tiny special perks really are the only thing that will ever separate your 9 years of 'effort' from the next person to come. But I can say that if I knew a person that I thought 'wow they'd make a great Bard in FFXI, they just have the mindset for it', and they wouldn't be able to do much content because entire tiers of ability are locked behind month-long gates of work that don't directly require them to be skilled, what's the difference?

    Maybe if there was a way to make your 9 years of 'skill acquiring' matter more, but is there?
    (4)

  9. #9
    Player Rhonda's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    42
    Character
    Rhonda
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    While I can't agree with any particular thing you've said, I can agree with the overall sentiment of your argument. Back in the 75 days, there were more viable options for players for equipment. This, I suspect, was likely due to the fact that the game had been capped at 75 for some time and there was plenty of time for SE to release new gear that had to be sidegrade to existing gear. Back in the day, I feel like there were more options to for a player to be able to just decide to level a new job and play on a whim but today everything requires a higher degree of planning and gear collection.

    I would argue that BRD is actually in a decent position, however. For lower-level content, things like SKCNM(up to D), Skirmish(up to 222), AA (N, though people very rarely take 2-song BRD) people generally expect a BRD to have two things: The relevant bits of Empyrean Armor +2 and enough Magic Accuracy to land their spells. Neither of those is particularly hard to come by and you can use these events to see if you want to be more serious about your BRD. For the hardest content, there have always been stiff (and somewhat appropriate) entrance requirements -- for BRD, that is either Terpandor or Duardabla(90).

    A March +3 instrument can be tossed in there for Delve but, outside of Delve, I've never seen anyone split hairs about it.

    PLD, sadly, is a bit worse off. Once you hit 99 there isn't even any group oriented content you can play to see if you even like the job. SKCNM are about "super-tanking" groups of monster while not engaged (not regular tanking), Skirmish doesn't involve PLD, EXP/JP PTs won't need a tank, and WKR seem to have wonky Enmity-mechanics. I was fortunate enough to be able to try AA HM, the easiest AA, with PLD using Eminent Shield and I was fine until I got one-shot by what was likely an entirely unblocked WS. Mind you, this was prior to Priwen/Beatific +1 and Killedar was something like 4~5M. It seemed like a perfectly worthwhile thing to try at the time. I'd say AAs, even N, are for Priwen and beyond due to the fact that an AA's WS can get huge and, if they go unblocked, they will kill the tank. Without any lower-level content, you're basically forced into paying 2M just to see if you want to go forward as PLD.

    The remaining jobs however, have it quite easy in terms of completing content. SKCNM20(~D) and Skirmish(~222) can done with 117 DDs. While getting invited to PUGs is another matter, some higher level content like Delve(1) and AAs(N) can be completed with any ole' 119 weapon. I used my Ninzas +2 for a long while (I even passed Oats a few times to 117 MNK) until I could get Tinhaspa. While I got Tsurumaru before I ever Delved with SAM, I have seen a few Shichishito +2 SAMs in PUGs. WHM doesn't even require much new content to be completed to gear up.

    So, while there indeed are requirements to participating in content, they aren't that high.
    (1)

  10. 07-10-2014 08:47 AM

  11. #10
    Player Byrth's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    2,172
    Character
    Byrth
    World
    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    Anyone can make >1 million gil per day doing Salvage for an hour. Are the JSE weapons really so out of reach for casual players? It seems more likely to me that the erosion of the NA community makes it so casual players don't know what to do to make gil and don't have anywhere to ask.


    The game has never been more casual friendly. In order to gear a WAR fairly well in ToAU at level 75, you needed millions of gil (Haub +1, Dusk Gloves, Flame Ring, Toreador or Sniper +1, etc.) and a lot of time (Byakko's Haidate, Heca hands/feet, enough IS to get Perdu Voulge, more difficult mission clears, merits capped, etc.) This is ignoring all the stuff like E.body, Heca +1, Ridill, maybe a relic, Ares legs, etc. that the "elitists" would have wanted you to have. Furthermore, the performance difference between being "fairly well" geared and being casually geared was very substantial. I remember more than a few merit parties where I was >50% of the parse, and that was among people serious enough to make 2+ hours for meritting.

    Ignoring that relics are so easy to make now that you could conceivably make a relic in the time it would have taken to get mission clears and farm a Perdu Voulge before, there are easily obtained options (like Eminent weapons) and slightly more difficult options (the JSE weapons) that are pretty respectable weapons. I wouldn't necessarily take them into one of the hard VD BCNM fights, but they'd be fine on D.

    For a newly returned player:
    Get an Eminent weapon -> Farm salvage (Arrapago or Bhaflau) -> get a JSE weapon -> farm REM tales and upgrade your AF, farming Salvage as necessary -> congrats, you're essentially fully geared




    As far as BRD and PLD, the fourth song from bard becomes less and less important the more buffs the job gets. Champion's March would reduce its utility even further, and I hope they implement it soon. PLD is in a rough spot at the moment. I have Aegis/Ochain and still feel that I should make a Burtgang. Some of those VD fights are crazy. Priwen isn't a bad shield, though, and I should really make one and macro it as well.
    (6)

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