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  1. #11
    Player Martel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    249
    Character
    Martel
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeron View Post
    The only reason I was able to maintain some semblance of hate control was because I was /drk and using last resort to lower my attack delay as much as possible.
    From the April-30-2013-(JST)-Version-Update notes
    "The job trait Desperate Blows may now be learned at level fifteen*.
    Desperate Blows reduces delay for two-handed weapons when using Last Resort."

    Meaning, unless you were using a great sword, you weren't getting any delay reduction via last resort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeron View Post
    I'm wondering if Suppa lowers attack delay even if you only have one wpn equipped? If dual wielding gets applied even if only one wpn is equip the devs could add more gear to help pld lower its attack delay so that in situation were hate is capped we can maintain hate.
    It doesn't. You must have a weapon equipped in both the main and sub slot for dual wield to have any effect.

    This becomes extremely clear when you single wield /nin, and still have your original tp per hit.
    (0)

  2. #12
    Player Aeron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    137
    Character
    Lanselot
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Martel View Post
    From the April-30-2013-(JST)-Version-Update notes
    "The job trait Desperate Blows may now be learned at level fifteen*.
    Desperate Blows reduces delay for two-handed weapons when using Last Resort."

    Meaning, unless you were using a great sword, you weren't getting any delay reduction via last resort.

    It doesn't. You must have a weapon equipped in both the main and sub slot for dual wield to have any effect.

    This becomes extremely clear when you single wield /nin, and still have your original tp per hit.
    Yeah that was my mistake. I was looking at last resort on bg thinking that it gave 15% job haste instead of attack. The dual wield effecting one handed setups was just wishful thinking. I was looking at the attack delay formula trying to figure out if there was any real way to lower delay besides magic haste. This seems to be were the major problem is when it comes to tanking with DDs and the saturation of the enmity cap. What I find kinda strange though is that every time I activated last resort it seemed as if I was able to keep better hate. It couldn't have been the increase in dmg because the amount of dmg near the cap is irrelevant.

    It now seems that the only source of job haste you can get is from haste samba to effect the delay of a one handed wpn for pld. This is definitely an area on the formula that they can adjust to make it possible for pld to tank effectively. They could add in a merited trait that acts like desperate blows that lowers plds attack delay for one handed wpns. I'm sure they would have to give it some kind of negative attribute too like decrease attack -15% or something.
    (0)

  3. #13
    Player Martel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    249
    Character
    Martel
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    I'd really rather they just fix the issues with the enmity system than make other changes to accommodate a flawed system.
    (2)

  4. #14
    Player Babekeke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    2,273
    It's a shame, because to me the solution is fairly simple. Raise the caps on enmity with the spell crusade by 1. That way, you have to actually take damage to lose hate, regardless of how many other people are hitting the mob.

    Take damage >>> lose hate >>> deal damage/use JA/Magic >> get hate back again until you take damage again.

    On enemies that hit slowly this would mean you have hate for a hell of a lot more of the time, and on enemies that hit very quickly, they generally don't deal as much damage so won't get through phalanx and shield blocks.

    They could of course increase hate cap by more than 1, but they already said that they don't want it to be too easy for tanks to hold hate and allow the DDs to go all out. This way, tanks will still lose hate when they take damage, to keep some semblance of game balance.
    (0)

  5. #15
    Player
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,542
    That's not a fix though. If it was just 1 you'd still yo yo ever time you get hate plus that is just a bandaid at best. The system needs an overhaul. As is +/-enmity is fairly useless outside of hate resets and with the ws update some jobs can recap in a single ws anyways lol
    (3)

  6. #16
    Player Babekeke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    2,273
    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    That's not a fix though. If it was just 1 you'd still yo yo ever time you get hate plus that is just a bandaid at best. The system needs an overhaul. As is +/-enmity is fairly useless outside of hate resets and with the ws update some jobs can recap in a single ws anyways lol
    SE have already said that they don't want the game to be played by mindless DDs that run in and do as much damage as they can until they die because the tanks can't hold hate. They are trying to include some sort of strategy in this game. As such, a fix where hate at least only bounces when the tank takes damage, is better than it is now where the tank only has hate immediately after hitting the mob or doing some sort of action to get hate.

    As it is now, you have 3 options:

    1) use a tank and create a strategy that allows your tank to hold hate, by having the DDs turn or drop back occasionally, use SCH SP and/or THFs to control hate from other DDs.

    2) use a tank but have it there only to keep the mob occupied when all the DDs die and wait for unweaken due to them getting too much hate.

    3) don't bother with a tank at all because your DDs are going to have hate most of the time anyway.
    (0)

  7. #17
    Player Aeron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    137
    Character
    Lanselot
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    I'd really like to seem them implement a form of enmity douse for all DDs. It seems to me that its a lose lose situation. If you have tanks that can maintain hate alone then dds don't have to worry about enmity and the game suffers. But then again rngs have decoy shot not having to worry about hate right now and it doesn't seem to be a problem for them which I always find funny when ppl reverse that for melee dds like its not ok to have the same mechanic.
    (0)

  8. #18
    Player Babekeke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    2,273
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeron View Post
    I'd really like to seem them implement a form of enmity douse for all DDs. It seems to me that its a lose lose situation. If you have tanks that can maintain hate alone then dds don't have to worry about enmity and the game suffers. But then again rngs have decoy shot not having to worry about hate right now and it doesn't seem to be a problem for them which I always find funny when ppl reverse that for melee dds like its not ok to have the same mechanic.
    In all honesty though, it's a right pain in the ass when the mob runs off to a RNG or a mage, where as if it just turns to attack another melee, it's not so much of an issue.
    (1)

  9. #19
    Player Aeron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    137
    Character
    Lanselot
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Babekeke View Post
    In all honesty though, it's a right pain in the ass when the mob runs off to a RNG or a mage, where as if it just turns to attack another melee, it's not so much of an issue.
    Very true. Then again rngs can just shadowbind and the tank can reclaim hate. In all honesty though turning is a seriously unrealistic mechanic and I say that knowing we are playing a game with magic. I've said it before ill say it again, in a situation where I grab the attention of a monster im not going to turn my back to him thinking that yeah thatll lose his attention on me. If anything I would expect the monster to be more bloodthirsty, him now thinking I was an easy kill.
    (0)

  10. #20
    Player Rwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    372
    Character
    Rwolf
    World
    Bismarck
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    The development team on one end wants players to incorporate enmity values into strategy, but on the other end they continue to create timed content with very little leeway for slower fighting and failure. Every time a damage dealing job has to hold back, or a job has to use enmity manipulating spells and abilities, it slows damage over time - decreasing your room for general errors. Not only is the enmity system horrible at the moment, but the content that revolves around killing things as quickly as possible almost negates any variance for strategy.

    Now there are linkshells, statics, and very rarely PUG groups that finish battles way before the time limit because of their gear and using well known strategies. Allowing them to let people play in a substandard way to be more enjoyable. But for the general population of the game, the current state of the game is pretty unforgiving on time management.

    I think the development team needs to take all of this into account if they want the playerbase to incorporate enmity into strategy. I agree that enmity- weapons and enmity+ spells alone aren't going to cut it. The system itself needs revision with consideration of timed events.
    (3)

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