Revocation and replacement of item level system

[Jerbob]

The implementation of the item level system was certainly one of the more controversial changes for XI in recent years, and with good reason. It's a hack - that much is clearly apparent. While the decision to increase the level cap with the introduction of Seekers of Adoulin was not necessarily a bad one, the implementation of that level cap increase demonstrably is. To that end, I would like to see it replaced with a much more stable system that avoids the plethora of pitfalls that we have to deal with in the current state of XI.

The primary problem with the item level system is that it can never be flexible enough to work in a game like XI. We have too many stats, jobs and ways of playing for a restrictive set of item levels to cover all the bases. As it stands, item levels are (debatably) able to cope with the basics of levelling up - the damage taken and dished out. The item level system spectacularly fails when it comes to jobs that don't work on this paradigm, like support or pet jobs. The main issue is that, throughout the game's history, for gear, higher level has not always been better, and this remains the case.

Unless all item level equipment is automatically boosted to the maximum level as it is introduced, there will be a lot of jobs with a lot of equipment slots that work best with equipment that is not at the item level cap. For example, my best Fast Cast body piece options as WHM are the Anhur Robe and Marduk's Jubbah +1. If I want to cast quickly those are the best, but if I want to be properly protected I can't use them, because they doesn't have the item level nonsense to protect me. Nor do they give me level appropriate magic accuracy, or anything else of that nature. Job-specific or unusual/unique effects are even more difficult to replicate.

There's also the problem with non-offensive skills being shafted. How can I make Elemental Siphon scale to match my new item level MP pool? I can't - the "magic accuracy skill" hack doesn't help me with my summoning magic. How can my barspells keep up with the greater magic accuracy of monsters? They can't - Enhancing Magic is still capped at level 99 values.

The issue of taking damage is a really significant one. A "full level 119" set of gear is absolutely not the best for a lot of tasks, particularly for support and pet jobs, but if those jobs want to perform well they have to take the risk of being one-shot by the most mundane of attacks or crippled by enfeebles they should be resisting. That's not a problem with the job, or the player, or the battlefield - that's a problem with the item level system. You just have to look at the Eminent sets of level 117 gear - atrocious stuff for support jobs to use full time.

SE has tried to help fix issues by upgrading AF and Relic to give all jobs a job-appropriate set of item level gear. While that's admirable, it's also a bandage covering a decapitation. Full AF and relic were not good things to use back when they were the latest thing, and they still aren't for a lot of jobs. It's better, but it's covering up the problem. Even when SE "try" with stuff like Sifahir Slacks they get it wrong.

SE has said that they cannot increase our normal levels beyond 99 for technical reasons, which is fair enough. However, we already have a system for character progression beyond the level cap - merit points - and I believe that increasing the level cap through merits is a much more sensible and effective solution than item levels. To that end, I propose the following addition to merit points:

1. Addition of a new merit point section "Level Up" for each individual job, with a single "Level Up" category in which merits may be spent.
2. A system by which the cap for this "Level Up" category can be increased by participating in what was formerly "item level content", including Records of Eminence and reives for newer players.
3. The removal of the item level system.

The difference between a job-specific merit based approach and an equipment-based approach is that jobs can be specifically catered for. There would be no need to worry about using formerly "low item level" gear, or effective pre-Adoulin gear, because the level you earned would be guaranteed regardless of equipment. Non-offensive magical skills can scale properly, and jobs with niche stats like support jobs can keep using the rare (or even singular) gear that enhances their capabilities. Tying the system to item level content isn't really necessary, but it would require the smallest paradigm shift from SE's current setup.

I do understand and appreciate that people have grown to tolerate the item level system over time, and that a change of this nature would be an upheaval to those people. The transition would have to be made as easy as possible, probably with an allowance for people already with former item level equipment to automatically unlock these merit categories. However, a well-managed transition to merit-based levels would be a much firmer foundation for the game to move forward from, and would not marginalise jobs that already have restricted equipment options.

Thanks for reading!

[Divaud]

As someone who has played on and off since release and I just came back with a fresh start character, i have to agree with you.

To me it's not so much that we've become too powerful etc, it's that our "power" comes directly from gear. And while gear has always played a big part in FFXI the fact that once I hit 99 I can put on gear that essentially "adds" 15-20 levels is a bit... cheesy?

And by that i am referring to the lack of actual earned progression. Sure you have to earn sparks to buy the 117 gear then the items for 119 AF but that isn't character progression as i've come to know it. My character isn't stronger, it's the gear.

I didn't earn exp and dump into merits to progress my character, i basically just "bought" new gear that makes me 15-20 levels stronger in an instant.

I'm curious why they didnt just expand the merits system further or make the job point system a little more impactful instead of using this very odd item level system.

Unfortunately for them to scrap the item level system would be asking a lot because it would be throwing out a ton of content and devoted time.

However, with that said it's not like they haven't done that already with many things. There isnt a whole lot of incentive for me to go through stuff like abyssea, or campaign because everything is easily surpassable by SoA stuff.

Sure i'd miss some stuff but again when I hit 99 I put on my ilvl gear and it made me far more powerful than 60 merits did or any items i would gain by doing older content.

tldr; i agree with OP there has to be a better way to balance things and go back to a form of actual character progression to match new content, not just gear that gets equipped.

[Jerbob]

I don't think they'd have to remove any content. From what SE have said earlier in the addition of item levels, everything is calculated on equipment using a formula. They just have to reverse that formula to arrive at the "true stats" on a piece of equipment, without the item level correction nonsense. They would effectively be doing the opposite of what they did right at the start of Adoulin when they "revamped" the Orvail etc. sets with the item level stat vomit. That's why I think reversing item levels is actually fairly realistic - no content needs to be removed, and the "true stats" of items are easily calculated. Once the merits are in place, everything is back to normal, minus the issues that item levels present.

Thanks for the support!

[Alhanelem]

all I can say is good luck with that. considering

1) the time and effort players have already spent, a vast majority of them would not be happy if that was undone in any way. How else could you fix it? You'd either have to take people's items away or nerf the crap out of them. Odds are many people's current gear would suddenly probably not be their best option.

2)the time and effort SE spent developing it. They're not about to remove it or anything else for that matter. No content in the history of the game has ever been removed.

they don't need to remove it, however the buck does need to stop here, that is, it should not ever increase beyond what we have now, and they should horizontally develop some new situational benefit items and items with other stat configurations to give players the range of choices they used to have before the system was implemented. The hardcore FFXI fanbase loves their horizontal growth. On a personal level I don't care for it so much because it creates an inventory management nightmare, however I also appriciate the benefits, where you get more choice and variety and less power creep.

[Jerbob]

Valid points

I do understand that players would be narked to find their most powerful item nerfed. I would be as well. However, I don't think it'll be as bad as it appears. First of all, people with 119 equipment should automatically be granted the appropriate merits to "auto-level" to 119 just by presenting their weapon/gear to an NPC. They've earned their "levels", so they should carry over in a new system. Secondly, the player using the equipment won't suddenly become less powerful when things change - it is merely that the equipment is doing less of the work compared to the character. It'll also potentially open up new options for people to follow, which could potentially make characters even stronger because they're not having to use suboptimal gear just because of the item level label.

The only thing that would need to change here would be the item levels on the items themselves, plus a few references in text around the game (eg. BCs). Everything else - content included - could stay the same. The fact that merit points exist, and the capacity to increase skills, attributes and so on already exists, reduces the amount of work SE needs to do. I do recognise that SE rarely, if ever change their mind, but if people make enough of a fuss they might listen. They did for the big payment scandal a few years ago, and I hope that they will now. Yes, it's unlikely, but that's never a reason not to try, and I think a lot of good could come of it.

And yes, please, we don't need to increase the cap further. Fully agree there.

[SickOfYou]

If this could be counted as some sort of petition to remove iLVL gear from the game and replace it with an actual cap increase or merit point expansion, I'd very much like to put my name here.

[Olor]

I generally support this, though I doubt it will happen.

If it doesn't happen though, SE needs to let us upgrade more equipment to ilevel. Preferably at least 117 so our choices aren't "get one shot" and "wear hideous sparks gear that has no job specific/role specific boosts"

Frankly I'm ticked off that sparks gear was made to be a higher item level than so many better sets that took more effort to obtain. I'm also ticked off that SE has done such a terrible job at ensuring all jobs scale equally and have proper gear to wear. Take my BRD. The best overall set for it, hands down, is still AF3. Out of all of the items I mainly use for it only 2 or 3 are ilevel. None of the sparks gear has anything useful for bard on it. None of the bayld gear has stats useful to the core purpose of bard. For crikes sake, I'm often sporting a level 72 shirt so that my songs don't take 10 ages to cast. In the olden days without stat vomit, that wasn't such a big deal. Now I am one-shot bait. And lol @ relic and AF - in bard's case the majority of it is completely pointless. It's like SE doesn't even know what stats a bard is looking for. Yeah -PDT is nice, but it's not going to be the first thing I'm seeking for.

I know the reality - and it's this - there is no way the devs are going to be able to provide enough situational gear to replace all the gear we have been using for years, in some cases more than a decade. The result is, jobs with non-standard needs get totally shafted by ilevel. This has been entirely clear with pets. Frankly these jobs have always had a hard time, it took a decade for the array of gear choices we have to get put together - and now using that gear is a huge disadvantage mechanically, and we have nothing with ilevel to replace it.

Also I just can't express enough how much I hate my pet spawning being based on ilevel. I'd much prefer we get more gear with affinity on it, and then be able to remove it after spawning to use whatever weapon we want without dropping the HP of our pet.

[Alhanelem]

Also I just can't express enough how much I hate my pet spawning being based on ilevel. I'd much prefer we get more gear with affinity on it, and then be able to remove it after spawning to use whatever weapon we want without dropping the HP of our pet.

Wait, the game checks this constantly? you have to keep your pet level item (be it the -caller or animator or your weapon or whatever) equipped at all times? For PUP it makes sense because the animator does more than just set your pet's level but for the others, not so much.

[Kensagaku]

Yes, for BST you have to keep a level 119 axe in your main hand. If you change your mainhand weapon, your pet's level changes accordingly, both directions. Fortunately we have a slew of 119 mainhands, so it's not as crippling as it could be.

[Rubeus]

What you're basically referring to in D&D terms would be Character Level vs what we're currently using, which is Class Level. I like this idea primarily because if I really were lvl 119, I would also continue to garner support job spells and functions. I forget where I read it, but when FFXI was in the development phase in Japan it was suggested that the level cap actually eventually reach 255 (which keeps with Enix's crazy RPGs wholeheartedly). Honestly, if they added a third type of point acquisition specifically for high-tier mission battlefields, achievements, or "end-game bosses" and called it character points, I'd be delighted. Their long-standing reason for not raising our maximum level has been that the on-screen display can't handle it, but we know that the game's data is capable of supporting it.

It could even show up as little +1's on your character, maybe underneath where the game's read-out identifies support job. But SE seems to think this would be catastrophically game-breaking and/or unfair -- a sentiment they alone seem to believe, as the entire player base already knows that if all merit categories were completely uncapped for jobs and stats, and you had all your +1 reforged AF/Relic and your +2 empyrean, you're looking at, what... -40 seconds of recast on a 15 minute ability for any given job, amounting to 1 pDif of accuracy/attack/evasion/etc for merited magic and combat skills?

Let's also not forget the magic accuracy testing done by the BLM community during the TOAU days, when exact values were hypothesized for the qiqirn in Alzadaal for the "sleep>nuke>sleep" method. I myself leveled BLM way back then, and it was common knowledge that if your M.Acc and skill didn't reach, what was it.. 650? That your resist rate would go through the roof. Now here we are with iLvl gear that supports direct magic accuracy and evasion but doesn't provide you with any of the other pDif benefits of being that level. In fairness, I understand that they've stated Adoulin's 104+ mobs won't be subject to as harsh a pDif penalty, but they haven't stated exactly what that reduction implies.