Relic Weapon - Aegis Item Level 119, when?

[Raka]

Hello, I'm back again with another rant and pleading that something long past due gets some attention again!

Anyways, let's look at the whole item level system....great idea for the most part. However, when you implemented item level to the REMs, you left out some stuff, Aegis, Ghorn, Ochain, and I believe Dura.

Where as the only increase you probably could do to Ghorn and Dura are yet another song or duration/potency, you could be giving PLD some more....usefulness again by giving Aegis and Ochain some shield skill.

Aegis is long overdue for some blockrate adjustments since well...longer than I can remember. Let's just say since Day 1.

I don't have the details personally, but people have mathed out that Aegis clearly has just garbage blockrate for a 130~300m item(depending what the going prices were when said person(s)) created it.

I'm not asking for Aegis to be overpowered and have highest blockrate in the game or anything, no...that's too much to ask for...<cough> Anyways! ^^

What I AM asking is that you please reconsider the fact it's suffered with such a garbage blockrate for too long. The rate of blocking on level 120~ monsters is like, hardly noticable and forces paladins to go get the much more easily aquired Skirmish or JSE shield.

Not really something I enjoy considering I put so much time and work into Ochain and Aegis. Does anybody else out there who actually has one of the two or both for that matter, agree? For gil spent, you want it to be at the top with the other good stuff, right?

Show some support and place your thoughts and opinions in the thread!

If someone has the blockrate math, etc. Maybe posting it here and showing SquareEnix what we're talking about!


As for Ochain, well. I don't know to be quite honest.. The shield skill is still something to be considered, but also considering that it costs anywhere starting from 225,000,000 Gil and higher to go from Ochain 90 to 95 is.... Well yeah.

I guess to sum up my rant/post, as it would apply to all REMs, not just shield and instruments... Give us our time/work/gils worth. Please! Thanks!

---Edit---
I also wanted to add that it's pretty bad that shields get slapped in the face with their shield skill on them, such as Eminent Shield, etc. Wher-as weapons are getting 240+ Parrying or Guarding. What's the deal with that?! ~.~

---Edit 2---
To be a bit more specific in my point also, I'll go ahead and list some comparisons.
Eminent Shield
Shield skill +100

Eminent Baghnakhs
Guarding skill +203

Eminent Scimitar
Parrying skill +215

So when you guys finally decide to add the Aegis and Ochain ToMs.... I really prefer not to see "Shield skill +115" when you added:
Priwen JSE
Shield skill +112

I'd very much rather see something along the lines of 242 for a Relic.
Excalibur
Parrying skill +242

So idealy, we should be getting:
Aegis
Shield skill +242

---Edit 3---
I'll be a little bit more specific to reduce further confusion. My point in this entire matter is:
Aegis shouldn't fall flat on it's face when you spend over 100~300m to make it, then 25~50m to go from 95 to 99 with it. These prices vary depending on when said person made their Aegis.

So ultimately in the end.... Shields such as Aegis and Ochain should be at the top of the rest of the shields.

#1 Ochain

#2 Aegis

#3 Priwen

#4 Beatific Shield +1

#5 Beatific Shield

And so on from this point....

---Edit 4---
In regards to Edit 3, I'll be posting the Aegis block rate formula a friend gave me here for quicker access in viewing. I truely hope to see Aegis rise back to the top 2 shields with an actual block rate that is worthy of such a position, time, and effort spent.

Lv.126 Monster:
126 - 99 = 27 Lv. Differences
So Lv.99 424 A+ skill + 27 * 7 skill per Lv = 613 Combat skill

Aegis base rate: 50%
Throw into formula:

50% + (674 (your skill) - 613 (monster skill) * 0.215 (shield skill multiplier)
= 50% + (61) * 0.215
= 50% + 13.115%
= 63.115% block rate on Lv.126 monsters

[Martel]

Well, I have both shields. And I'm the one who did most of the testing on their block mechanics. But
+242 shield skill would be absolutely ridiculous overkill.

Shield skill doesn't work on the same scale as parrying, guarding, or other combat skills. So it's not reasonable to compare the values in this manner.

Aegis with +242 skill would be physically stronger than Ochain on most content, while maintaining it's powerful magic dmg-. Even on the highest level mobs tested so far, Aegis with +242 skill would only be ~7% block rate behind Ochain, while having a much higher block dmg reduction value. With reprisal up, using Aegis, you'd be looking at a 94.5% block rate on lvl 126 mobs. This equates to a total dmg reduction value of -76.5%. Ochain with capped block rate would only be -66%. And giving Ochain more skill+ wouldn't help it keep up, as it'd already be at capped block rate.

So, while this wouldn't right out give Aegis the highest block rate in the game.. it'd get it pretty close.

I do agree that shields need item level updates. Aegis having a 12% block rate on lvl 126 mobs really sucks. But +242 skill is excessive, and would destroy the current shield hierarchy. Making Ochain a solo toy, and Aegis the all around shield. So all the Ochain wielders would now have an expensive toy, while Aegis owners would have the new best shield in the game.

[Raka]

Well considering I did mention I don't know the math on the blockrates and skill, I do appreciate you letting me know that 242 shield skill would be too much.

However, none the less. Aegis and Ochain, as well as Dura and Ghorn deserve item level status also. Aegis should at the very least be higher than the JSE shield blockrate, which should retain Ochains stance as highest blockrate shield otherwise. That's the very least we can ask for considering time spent and gil burned on such an item. Overall, my expectation is just that Ochain remains highest blockrate as I tried to explain in my OP, while Aegis trails behind it rather than all of these other easily obtained shields.

[Raka]

Right so, a friend of mine did some mathing of his own when I mentioned your post to him, Martel. I'll try to post exactly what he sent me, but:

Lv.126 Monster:
126 - 99 = 27 Lv. Differences
So Lv.99 424 A+ skill + 27 * 7 skill per Lv = 613 Combat skill

Aegis base rate: 50%
Throw into formula:

50% + (674 (your skill) - 613 (monster skill) * 0.215 (shield skill multiplier)
= 50% + (61) * 0.215
= 50% + 13.115%
= 63.115% block rate on Lv.126 monsters

He said he wasn't sure where you got 94.5% from. But let's also not forget that Aegis is capped off at 75% block rate so really wouldn't kick Ochain to the curb. It's just making all the time and effort we put into such an item viable for those who got it and Ochain would otherwise be used firstly in such cases that MDT is not required.

---Edit---
So after he re-read your post, he said he completely overlooked the statement of you mentioning "with Reprisal up" he now realized you were correct, haha. However it's rather situational and in the long run, that's really only with Reprisal. It leaves you hanging for a while if it is dispelled or wears off.

So logically, we're still talking about it being a fair upgrade to Aegis. If people went through the trouble to make Ochain due to the 100% block rates back when it was first introduced, then they will do the same for Aegis. Nothing has changed aside the fact the shield that does matter is back in the #1 place possibly.

Let's just be fair about it. Aegis has just been too neglected to argue right now. I could have put that gil and time to other uses. Would you not agree?

[Martel]

Firstly, Let me clarify my position on this. I'm not against Aegis getting an item level update. I'm entirely for it. It does need it. block rate sucks.

However, +242 shield skill, is excessive. It would make Aegis the one shield to rule them all. And it's even golden.

But let's also not forget that Aegis is capped off at 75% block rate so really wouldn't kick Ochain to the curb.

I really wish these block rate cap myths would die out already. I'm pretty sure I've posted more than enough testing to prove there aren't block rate caps.

---Edit---
So after he re-read your post, he said he completely overlooked the statement of you mentioning "with Reprisal up" he now realized you were correct, haha. However it's rather situational and in the long run, that's really only with Reprisal. It leaves you hanging for a while if it is dispelled or wears off.

Considering the adjustment to the reprisal dmg cap, it wearing early is not much of an issue anymore. And if you are being treated as a tank, you should have the buffs to maintain full time reprisal.

However, dispel is a valid concern. You could either lose march/haste, and find yourself with an extended recast, or lose reprisal itself shortly after cast and spend about 1 min with it down.

Thing is, none of that matters. Why? Because a +242 skill Aegis is still superior dmg reduction even without Reprisal.

So, you had your friend calculate block rates. But did he look at block dmg reduction as well? To fully compare the performance of two different shields, you need to use both block rate and block dmg reduction.

So. lvl 126 mob.

Aegis, +242 skill
block rate:63.11%
Block dmg-:-81%
total dmg reduction:-51.1%

Ochain.
block rate:70.23%
Block dmg-:-66%
total dmg reduction:-46.3%

So a +242 skill Aegis would reduce more damage overall than Ochain, even without reprisal.

Ochain has a major weakness, in that its block damage reduction is pretty low. A oldschool Koenig shield reduces more dmg per block that Ochain. <,<;;

You can still make some arguments for Ochain's 7% higher block rate. Higher block rate means better spell interruption prevention, less chance of ws add effects landing, and more stable dmg taken(less spikes)

But only by 7%. And Ochain isn't gonna cap block rate on these mobs without reprisal in any case. So it doesn't reach that super reliable 0 spike dmg taken plane. And when both have reprisal, Aegis block rate is only 5.34% behind.

Who wouldn't just wear the shield with higher overall physical dmg reduction AND be nearly immune to magic damage at the same time?

So logically, we're still talking about it being a fair upgrade to Aegis. If people went through the trouble to make Ochain due to the 100% block rates back when it was first introduced, then they will do the same for Aegis. Nothing has changed aside the fact the shield that does matter is back in the #1 place possibly.

When Ochain first came out Aegis didn't break the MDT cap. Aegis got completely screwed.

Of course people made Ochain, the thing was a total game changer. Incredible dmg reduction, total un-interruptibility, and infinite MP returns. While Aegis.. let you wear less MDT gear to hit cap. ... Oh, and it has a grumpy face.

Then SE acted to correct this imbalance, and gave Aegis something similarly game changing. Near immunity to magic dmg.

Let's just be fair about it. Aegis has just been too neglected to argue right now. I could have put that gil and time to other uses. Would you not agree?

You make it sound like you wasted your gil on Aegis or something. It's still an amazing shield. Against magic. It just sucks physically. Now, if they hadn't changed the MDT into MDT II, then yeah, you'd have wasted gil.

Sure, Aegis needs a boost. But lets not have a reversed repeat of Ochain's introduction. Hopefully, SE has learned enough from having to adjust Aegis once already.

Now, if they do it anyway, am I gonna be mad? Nope. I have both shields. I'll just start using Aegis. And lobby SE for a boost to Ochain. XD

[Raka]

Firstly, Let me clarify my position on this. I'm not against Aegis getting an item level update. I'm entirely for it. It does need it. block rate sucks.

However, +242 shield skill, is excessive. It would make Aegis the one shield to rule them all. And it's even golden.

I do appreciate that you took the time to go into more detail over this, and yes he did give me the damage blocked math. Though I do rather clear this up that I personally never did testing myself, which is why in my original post I had asked for someone knowledgeable in that specific field to post the information. I also made it quite clear that I was not asking for something over-powered, just a more proper adjustment. Next I'd like to point out, I pulled the question of asking for possible +242 shield skill based on SquareEnix's trend they were using for guarding and parrying skills.

On a side note, you don't get March *2, and/or Haste while soloing in content with no Alter Ego access, while even then...it's not reliable nor the content is hard enough anyways.

Finally, I guess this thread is otherwise, "concluded" if people are against even the slightest of adjustments... Considering they are actually Aegis paladins. Otherwise, they really should keep their noses out of it.

[Demonjustin]

Finally, I guess this thread is otherwise, "concluded" if people are against even the slightest of adjustments... Considering they are actually Aegis paladins. Otherwise, they really should keep their noses out of it.

If adjustments you suggest to Aegis would affect the balance of Ochain as well as Aegis then it stands to reason owners of either shield should at very least be warranted in their replies to this topic. I myself am not an Aegis PLD but I do have an Ochain(albeit on a friends character I often use) which I believe should afford me some amount of right to speak on this subject if it threatens the status of the shield I use as being the best(ish) melee shield in the game. I only say this because I don't think the lack of a certain shield should discount any opinions on the subject when it's not only that one shield that would potentially be effected in a broader sense.

[Aeron]

I agree with the TC. I believe that aegis is due for some kind of adjustment. The issue is a case of balance. I think they need to increase the block rate on aegis just enough so that in situations where you are full timing it that you don't get absolutely crushed. I'd also like to see an increase to shield bash as well.

I'd also like to comment on ppl who like to refer to pld as this quasi exclusive club. First off, you don't "need" ochain or aegis to do content. Priwen and Beatific Shield+1 are not slouch shields. How do I know this, well I have all the shields and have tested them. Its all about dmg mitigation. Ochain is actually not as good as Priwen when it comes to tdmg mitigation, however there are drawback which is called balance. If you going to use Priwen you run the risk of having reprisal dispelled or not having the ability to fulltime it due to buffs. For a shield that roughly costs 5M that is comparable to Ochain that's pretty damm good if you ask me. In situations where you may consider back tanking Priwen is actually the shield of choice.

The comparison between Beatific Shield +1 and Aegis aren't as close however. The fact that Beatific Shield +1 doesn't break the 50mdt soft cap is no bueno. I think SE should lower the mdt on this shield to -15mdt but make it so that it goes over the soft cap.

All in all if you don't have R/E shield and you want to be a pld you really should have Priwen and Beatific Shield +1. Anyone who just wants to do endgame and think there should be no gear requirements you are what is wrong with this game. How does it even make sense that you are going up against some of the hardest content and you shouldn't need a standard baseline level of gear to beat these NMs. No ilvl 117 is not the baseline im sorry in reference to RoE gear. You should have to spend more then 4hrs to gear your character to do endgame content or else its not an achievement.

[Raka]

If adjustments you suggest to Aegis would affect the balance of Ochain as well as Aegis then it stands to reason owners of either shield should at very least be warranted in their replies to this topic. I myself am not an Aegis PLD but I do have an Ochain(albeit on a friends character I often use) which I believe should afford me some amount of right to speak on this subject if it threatens the status of the shield I use as being the best(ish) melee shield in the game. I only say this because I don't think the lack of a certain shield should discount any opinions on the subject when it's not only that one shield that would potentially be effected in a broader sense.

I'm to asume you sort of missed my point, sure Ochain users are more than welcome to speak their mind, but Ochain users also did not spend a large sum of gil either on getting Ochain unless you just didn't have time to farm VNM3 pops. Also going to point out, how would any further adjustments to Aegis PLD would make Ochain irrelevent? People are clearly misunderstanding what I'm asking. I'm simply looking for adjustments to an item that costs more time/gil to make than the other shields, to be a little more ...well, a fulltime shield. If I'm going to invest time into it, then it really should be something I can say "I don't need any other shields now that I finally have this one".

Does it make a little bit of sense? Like it should be for weapons too. People pick the strongest weapon and stick with it. You don't carry 3~4 of the same type of Gun around on RNG and say "Oh well this weapon is only good for Delve, the others I use for AA2 or Tenzen.", do you? My arguement is pretty legitiment and it's not kicking the other shields to the curb. It's being able to fulltime the same shield because I invested my time into that item. The other shields would still be great alternates if you don't have Aegis, etc. Otherwise, it still wouldn't really change their stance anyways if people are only looking for Aegis PLD to begin with for events.

So to say that Aegis threatens the status of the shield you use is a mute arguement... You're welcome to share your opinions none the less, I sure don't mind. I'm just sharing my own also. All I'm asking is for people who don't even play PLD or know the work it took to get Aegis and/or Ochain to just stay out of the thread concerning said items. Because 9 out of 10 of those people are always "against" changes or they are just there to troll because they have nothing better to do with their time.

[dasva]

Should also mention that now that RUN finally has ergon weapon it is able to maintain similar magical defense to aegis pld while having a much better physical defense so it definitely needs a bit of an update... and ochain becoming uncapped with priwen being about the same block rate with reprisal up (dependent on base blockrates and such) while offering much better block dmg suggest it's time to get some well more shield skill as well. And both should have already gained more defense trialing them up