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  1. #21
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    Jul 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louispv View Post
    I believe they said there won't be any instrument or shield upgrades for Aegis/Ochain and Ghorn/Duraballa because even the level 99 versions are already equivalent to ilevel 149. So we'll be waiting a few years for actual ilevel 149 gear to show up before we can upgrade them.

    I'd honestly prefer they just made priwen have a 100% block rate without reprisal and just remove everything else it does. The JSE harp is essentially a level 90 Duraballa, but Priwen isn't a level 90 Ochain replacement.
    The problem is that isn't even close to true. If you can keep reprisal up priwen blocks just as much and blocks much more dmg. Ochain's blockrate is at best what might be 130ish while dmg blocked is more like level 75 <.<. So it's overall ilvl in terms of total dmg prevented on average is more like 120ish

    And that's the thing... aegis/ochain were great but now are falling behind. Why go thru the soul crushingness that is farming colorless souls when you can get something comparable in a few minutes? Why go thru the effort of making aegis when run can offer similar magic dmg reduction and now since aegis blocks about as good as a pld parries offers a lot less physical dmg reduction than say a ergon run and probably comparable without.

    REMs are supposed to top tierish waiting till they are completely outdated is how they received so much backlash when delve stuff outdated rems
    (2)
    Last edited by dasva; 06-04-2014 at 08:39 AM.

  2. #22
    Player Raka's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Former Citizen of Ifrit
    Posts
    324
    Character
    Shyuko
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    The problem is that isn't even close to true. If you can keep reprisal up it blocks just as much and blocks much more dmg. It's blockrate is at best what might be 130ish while dmg blocked is more like level 75 <.<. So it's overall ilvl in terms of total dmg prevented on average is more like 120ish

    And that's the thing... aegis/ochain were great but now are falling behind. Why go thru the soul crushingness that is farming colorless souls when you can get something comparable in a few minutes? Why go thru the effort of making aegis when run can offer similar magic dmg reduction and now since aegis blocks about as good as a pld parries offers a lot less physical dmg reduction than say a ergon run and probably comparable without.

    REMs are supposed to top tierish waiting till they are completely outdated is how they received so much backlash when delve stuff outdated rems
    Thank you so very much... Glad to see somebody else shares my thought process on the matter.
    (0)

  3. #23
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    Dec 2013
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    1,098
    Quote Originally Posted by Raka View Post
    I'm to asume you sort of missed my point, sure Ochain users are more than welcome to speak their mind, but Ochain users also did not spend a large sum of gil either on getting Ochain unless you just didn't have time to farm VNM3 pops. Also going to point out, how would any further adjustments to Aegis PLD would make Ochain irrelevent? People are clearly misunderstanding what I'm asking. I'm simply looking for adjustments to an item that costs more time/gil to make than the other shields, to be a little more ...well, a fulltime shield. If I'm going to invest time into it, then it really should be something I can say "I don't need any other shields now that I finally have this one".

    Does it make a little bit of sense? Like it should be for weapons too. People pick the strongest weapon and stick with it. You don't carry 3~4 of the same type of Gun around on RNG and say "Oh well this weapon is only good for Delve, the others I use for AA2 or Tenzen.", do you? My arguement is pretty legitiment and it's not kicking the other shields to the curb. It's being able to fulltime the same shield because I invested my time into that item. The other shields would still be great alternates if you don't have Aegis, etc. Otherwise, it still wouldn't really change their stance anyways if people are only looking for Aegis PLD to begin with for events.

    So to say that Aegis threatens the status of the shield you use is a mute arguement... You're welcome to share your opinions none the less, I sure don't mind. I'm just sharing my own also. All I'm asking is for people who don't even play PLD or know the work it took to get Aegis and/or Ochain to just stay out of the thread concerning said items. Because 9 out of 10 of those people are always "against" changes or they are just there to troll because they have nothing better to do with their time.
    See the problem I have here is that it sounds like you're fine with Aegis being better than Ochain in Physical as well. I disagree because Aegis isn't a PDT shield, it's the MDT Shield. Ochain is the PDT Shield, that''s how it's been for a while now and it should stay that way. I agree both shields should be upgraded(albeit not with +242 Skill, probably more like 150 at the very most) but I don't think Aegis should become a 100% always best shield.
    (0)

  4. #24
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    Apr 2014
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    447
    Quote Originally Posted by Raka View Post
    Does it make a little bit of sense? Like it should be for weapons too. People pick the strongest weapon and stick with it. You don't carry 3~4 of the same type of Gun around on RNG and say "Oh well this weapon is only good for Delve, the others I use for AA2 or Tenzen.", do you? My arguement is pretty legitiment and it's not kicking the other shields to the curb. It's being able to fulltime the same shield because I invested my time into that item. The other shields would still be great alternates if you don't have Aegis, etc. Otherwise, it still wouldn't really change their stance anyways if people are only looking for Aegis PLD to begin with for events.
    Glad Brds don't take this stance. Although I guess a 99 horn only Brd wouldn't be so bad with the JSE harp now.

    You're pretty much presenting the same argument that was made by many when Delve weapons were first introduced. However, when those were introduced, RME weapons as nearly a whole lost all of their value, since they outside of Burt, Yagrush, and Carn, their purpose was to do damage in one way or another. These shields haven't lost their value for what their respective use was. Have things come close? Absolutely, just as they should. RMEs are great for being "at your best." Look at the weapons. There's plenty of non-RME weapons that come close (some even surpass) to RMEs. At least the shields still retain their value for their respective use.

    Wanting your one single shield to be the end all be all of shields is fairly silly. A buff so it's not such a low block rate? Absolutely, sure. But being the best and fultimeable without question? Never.
    (2)

  5. #25
    Player Aeron's Avatar
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    Oct 2011
    Posts
    137
    Character
    Lanselot
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    I'm all for the addition to shield skill to Aegis and maybe an increase in defense for Ochain should they decide to 119 them. Lets actually take a look at when you would really want to use one over the other.

    For Aegis there are actually very few times that you really want to fulltime the shield in current endgame content. AA TT is an obvious example. AA MR during the last 25% of hp when she starts using cloudsplitter. Delve 2 there are various NMs that you want to use Aegis on. Now, what really needs to be corrected imo is that when you are switching to Aegis the NM isn't just casting spells lol. You are still taking significant physical dmg. Just referencing AA TT again his ws still hurt, but when you are at the point where he is casting meteor you're happy because you aren't dead like the rest of the party lol. So if they could adjust the block rate to say the lvl of a 115 or 117 shield, I think there is still a good enough incentive to obtain a 119 physical shield for some ppl now, some ppl are going to be like no that's enough for me and fulltime Aegis all the time.

    The problem with Ochain is that the block rate doesn't adjust past lvl90. Most ppl would agree that there really isn't any reason to 99 an Ochain. This error in Ochains power scaling is one of the reasons why Priwen isn't a direct side grade to Lvl90 Ochain like the JSE harp is to lvl90 Daurdabla. In Daurdabla's case there is still significant motivation to 99 the wpn and so its less of a slap in the face of ppl that built that wpn to let non main brds to make a lvl 90 /JSE harp version of Daurdabla because the lvl 99 version is still way better. Not so much the case with Ochain and Priwen. Id actually like to see them correct this error and adjust Ochains power for lvl 99 and have Priwen be a lvl90 equivalent and actually give ppl a reason to 99 the shield.

    The idea that you should only need one shield for any given situation is kind of misguided. Now do I think that they should do something about tp loss for switching shields hell yes which is one of the reason it sucks to do so in the middle of a fight. The only way I could think of that they could implement such a master shield is if they gave us the ability to combine Aegis and Ochain is to some kind of super shield lol which will never happen.
    (1)

  6. #26
    Player Martel's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    249
    Character
    Martel
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeron View Post
    Now do I think that they should do something about tp loss for switching shields hell yes which is one of the reason it sucks to do so in the middle of a fight.
    I'd been thinking of making a thread requesting this from SE.

    Swapping shields and not losing TP wouldn't hurt the game at all. It doesn't have the kinda DPS potential that swapping weps would have.

    It's pretty obnoxious to make 2 shield that are the best at their respective dmg type, then penalize you for switching between them.

    And losing AM3 every time a nuke comes your way is pretty annoying. It's not like I took off my Burtgang. Why'd I lose AM3?

    It's wouldn't be hard for SE to implement this either. The code is already there. swapping instruments or ammo doesn't cause TP loss, as long as you swap to the same type. So it should be a simple matter to add shield -> shield swaps to that
    (2)

  7. #27
    Player Byrth's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    2,172
    Character
    Byrth
    World
    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    Shields and Staves should be swappable without losing TP like Instruments. Should always have been that way.
    (2)

  8. #28
    Player Aeron's Avatar
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    Oct 2011
    Posts
    137
    Character
    Lanselot
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Martel View Post
    I'd been thinking of making a thread requesting this from SE.

    Swapping shields and not losing TP wouldn't hurt the game at all. It doesn't have the kinda DPS potential that swapping weps would have.

    It's pretty obnoxious to make 2 shield that are the best at their respective dmg type, then penalize you for switching between them.

    And losing AM3 every time a nuke comes your way is pretty annoying. It's not like I took off my Burtgang. Why'd I lose AM3?

    It's wouldn't be hard for SE to implement this either. The code is already there. swapping instruments or ammo doesn't cause TP loss, as long as you swap to the same type. So it should be a simple matter to add shield -> shield swaps to that
    This right here is why I really don't like to shield swap. Speaking of AM3 though, I wish they would make it so that aftermath was able to be overridden. I mean this might become a moot issue once the adjustments to ws's comes out and we can just use atonement like every other ws during the AM. If not though and its the same as before where you tend to want to switch to CDC or REQ they should change it to were if you get 300tp and have like 15secs on the aftermath to be able to overwrite it right away.

    tldr: AM maintenance needs to be addressed.
    (0)

  9. #29
    Player Raka's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Former Citizen of Ifrit
    Posts
    324
    Character
    Shyuko
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Demonjustin View Post
    See the problem I have here is that it sounds like you're fine with Aegis being better than Ochain in Physical as well. I disagree because Aegis isn't a PDT shield, it's the MDT Shield. Ochain is the PDT Shield, that''s how it's been for a while now and it should stay that way. I agree both shields should be upgraded(albeit not with +242 Skill, probably more like 150 at the very most) but I don't think Aegis should become a 100% always best shield.
    Ok, so you still are missing the point. I'm asking for it to just be a fulltime piece. Not be 100% best MDT and PDT shield. Ochain will always remain best PDT shield with Priwen. Best explained in Aeron's and Martel's recent post saying we shouldn't be penalized for swapping shields out and losing TP and aftermath 3, etc..

    Aegis just needs to get some adjustments in it's physical field. Not get a better block rate than Ochain, but to be trailing right behind Ochain's block rate and not behind most of the other easily obtained shields.
    (0)

  10. #30
    Player Raka's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Former Citizen of Ifrit
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    324
    Character
    Shyuko
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Malithar View Post
    Wanting your one single shield to be the end all be all of shields is fairly silly. A buff so it's not such a low block rate? Absolutely, sure. But being the best and fultimeable without question? Never.
    Clearly there is just too much misunderstanding about this subject. I'm not in no way suggesting Aegis to be the end of all the shields. I'm asking for the small block rate adjustment, geez.... And being a fulltime shield should be part of that large sum of gil put into it. It still won't be better than Ochain block rate, but it can be fulltimed none the less. That is the point of this. If you are putting the time and effort into something, you'd want to be able to just use it full time.

    Regardless, I'm done repeating myself multiple times because people see "block rate increase" or "fulltime" and overlook the rest of it all then give out a "NO! My Priwen was hard to get! My Ochain took so much time and was always best physical shield! I'm too lazy to even make an Aegis so I'm against people who did make it to get some small adjustments!".
    (0)

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