Ninja Ability Suggestion

[WoW]

I just wanna say. Lack of Decoy and Annihilator, if nothing else, would eliminate any chance of NIN being a real alternative. Kinard also pointed out that their throwing DMG is best at close range even if they're not meleeing due to how ranged attacks work, so they'd by default likely be weaker for that reason alone. I won't jump in the argument about whether or not the adjustment should be done or how valuable it would be, I just felt like pointing out that replacing RNG or becoming a decent alternative just isn't in the cards.

Which is why I stated a throwing ws, perhaps a job trait that allows barrage like shots, and occasionally deal double damage. I was already doing rng like attacks with shurikens at one point; the only thing missing was a ws, Jas, and traits (Which is what we want). Lol, you guys keep mentioning the lack of JAs, we know this, which is why the OP recommended a stance; we assume that it will not be a bare bones guys. For instance, the Innin behind penalty will not apply to the throwing stance. That is just one example of a JA/trait. perhaps this stance will be more efficient the further away you are, who knows.

Listen; we know throwing needs a overhaul which is the point of this thread. You stated that you did not want to jump into the debate, but you did, lol. You guys keep bringing up problems we know exist, which is why we are suggesting a re-haul,aka ninja throwing stance.

Edit: You and Kin do not think it will work, ok, no harm, no foul; but there are 6 other ppl that would like something like this based upon the OP's likes. You are not going to convince us otherwise; lol (But you can try; public forum). For instance; just because a player shoots down the idea does not mean we will stop wanting this. We are not trying to convince the naysayers, but get dev approval.

[WoW]

Also, i love the naysayers, free bumps; want this thread to keep going strong so thanks for contributing to our cause; although you disagree with it, lol.

If a devs says shoots this down, then fine, I will not cry about it. These are just a few suggestions we want added to the game; a throwing stance. Until then, continue to help us keep the throwing stance thread alive with your opposing stance^^

[Kincard]

I am so tired of this community constantly looking for a fight; good grief.

I'm not looking for a fight man, I'm giving feedback just like you are, it just happens to be in opposition to you. Contrary to what you think I actually would like it a lot if they made shurikens useful and made some other lore-appropriate changes like smoke bombs or whatever. I'm trying to add to the conversation so you ask for the right adjustment instead of something that would be completely useless. A throwing stance and throwing traits will not be nearly enough- they need to completely revamp ranged attacks in the game, which would solve problems pertaining to RNGs, CORs, SAM bows, and throwing.

I do good damage with ninjustu at 99

There's no way it was outdoing your katanas at level 99. You could be completely naked with level 99 katanas and you still would've done more damage than in the best nuking gear. I'm not even joking.

but at least you acknowledged that ninjustu does good damage

At level 40, yes. I don't know how the ninjutsu skill patch changes things but back when I was actually leveling NIN was only good until maybe somewhere in the 50s and then it stopped being useful. After the skill patch it was still bad at 99, it is still bad at 119. If they put magic damage+ on katanas like they do with BLU sword it might have a niche use but as it is I can do more elemental damage just by subbing RUN. I did not backpedal anywhere, I don't think you know what the word means.

You are just arguing to defend your post; we get it, you do not like throwing, but we do.

You're not getting it, I don't dislike throwing in any way (there's no reason for me to "dislike" a game feature, I'm just stating objective facts about how the game works), it's that the game is objectively structured from a mechanics standpoint to disadvantage ranged attacks. They tried to fix that by greatly reducing the after-shot delay which helped, but it still wasn't enough to make RNG anything other than better at what it was already good at. It still wasn't really competitive in straight damage compared to actual melee DPS. If they couldn't fix it for RNGs, why would you want them to add this feature for NINs when it'd serve no real tactical purpose? Again, the sweet spot range for throwing is melee range, so it's not like you'd even get that tactical advantage if you were to start throwing on NIN.

I gave specific reasons why it would work, but stated they were vague, you are clearly arguing just to defend your post.

I gave reasons why they wouldn't work unless they are extreme changes, and you don't seem to want to rebut them or just don't understand why that's a huge problem. They would need to give Ninja ranged buffs that are something like 3 times better than what RNG, the premiere ranged job, for Shuriken to be in any way useful. This is like asking them to give NIN stronger MAB and MBB traits than BLM and give them better magic damage weapons- it's not in any way realistic.

My shurikens were scaling with rng's attacks lvl 18-55 and they did not give two $hits.

You mean those levels where barely any haste gear exists?

that is what we are asking for.....LMAO...what is the problem brah lol. You have your suggestions; that is fine, public forum, however, this thread is about throwing so...................

Again, the problem is that using the suggestions you have made, they would need to be ridiculously exaggerated changes for them to mean anything. If at some point they decide that they want to completely revamp how ranged attacks work, great...but they haven't done it for 12 years, and since Matsui's been up they've been pretty good about trying to rebalance the major broken aspects of the game, and something as big as a ranged attack adjustment has never been mentioned a single time. In case you're wondering what I mean by the adjustment, it would mean making ranged attack another type of autoattack, so it wouldn't be overly reliant on players doing something monotonous to be good and it would assumedly eliminate that annoying aftershot delay.

That sort of thing is what you should be asking for if you want shurikens to be fixed, and not things like a throwing stance and triple throw. You don't ask for a cherry if you don't have ice cream.

As to why I'm in this thread, I'm giving feedback as to why it's a bad suggestion. It would be a complete waste of dev time and fix NIN in absolutely no way whatsoever. Unfortunately from a realistic view job changes are a zero-sum game. I don't want the devs to think that this would actually be a good idea unless they're prepared to add things on the magnitude I suggested.

you completely blew it off, so I do not expect you to have much objectivity pertaining to this topic. If anything; this stance would be akin to sams using a bow. That is what I envisioned. This would also help on those pesky mobs that take flight or range battles.

My posts are the most objective in the entire thread because they actually talk about game mechanics instead of simply what I feel like would be cool.

As for SAMs using their bows, I can see something like that happening, but the ranged stance would be unnecessary for that. Almost the only time SAMs use their bow is during WSs because Namas Arrow's enmity effect is great. If they're ever taken over RNGs in ranged fights its only because someone can't find any.

Before you mention throwing WS, it's been stated multiple times that they can't do it from a system standpoint. If they have fixed this it might be somewhat interesting to have lots of new WS to play wth, I suppose, but it'd only get used in the same way SAMs use Namas Arrow- they'd never just free fire the ranged weapon, it'd be get TP with your katanas and then fire a shuriken WS. That would actually fit into the current framework of the game.

Again, ask for shurikens if you want, but you should be asking for a total ranged attack overhauls and not for them to add things that wouldn't help at all.

[WoW]

I'm not looking for a fight man, I'm giving feedback just like you are, it just happens to be in opposition to you. Contrary to what you think I actually would like it a lot if they made shurikens useful and made some other lore-appropriate changes like smoke bombs or whatever. I'm trying to add to the conversation so you ask for the right adjustment instead of something that would be completely useless. A throwing stance and throwing traits will not be nearly enough- they need to completely revamp ranged attacks in the game, which would solve problems pertaining to RNGs, CORs, SAM bows, and throwing.

Nah, you clearly stated in your previous post that throwing, aka shurikens could not work. "No, making throwing any sort of emphasis for Ninja at this point is a bad idea." Also, you may or may not be looking for a fight; the reason why I think you are? This thread is about a rehaul to throwing; you clearly stated that throwing would need a revamp.

There's no way it was outdoing your katanas at level 99. You could be completely naked with level 99 katanas and you still would've done more damage than in the best nuking gear. I'm not even joking.

Never said nuking out dd katanas, you stated "By that logic elemental ninjutsu should be amazing because they completely wreck everything when you first get them at level 40." Then you back-peddled and admitted that nin nuking was pretty good at 99 pre-delve (Abyssea nin nuking is still insane).



At level 40, yes. I don't know how the ninjutsu skill patch changes things but back when I was actually leveling NIN was only good until maybe somewhere in the 50s and then it stopped being useful. After the skill patch it was still bad at 99, it is still bad at 119. If they put magic damage+ on katanas like they do with BLU sword it might have a niche use but as it is I can do more elemental damage just by subbing RUN. I did not backpedal anywhere, I don't think you know what the word means.

See above; nin nuking is still powerful;in abyssea, but nonetheless it has uses post 40.



You're not getting it, I don't dislike throwing in any way (there's no reason for me to "dislike" a game feature, I'm just stating objective facts about how the game works), it's that the game is objectively structured from a mechanics standpoint to disadvantage ranged attacks. They tried to fix that by greatly reducing the after-shot delay which helped, but it still wasn't enough to make RNG anything other than better at what it was already good at. It still wasn't really competitive in straight damage compared to actual melee DPS. If they couldn't fix it for RNGs, why would you want them to add this feature for NINs when it'd serve no real tactical purpose? Again, the sweet spot range for throwing is melee range, so it's not like you'd even get that tactical advantage if you were to start throwing on NIN.

Again; you clearly stated that any emphasis on throwing is a bad idea. Also, whose to say that they will not revamp how nin operates? For instance; in the stance, the innin behind penalty is removed and further distance equates to more dmg; for this stance only.

I gave reasons why they wouldn't work unless they are extreme changes, and you don't seem to want to rebut them or just don't understand why that's a huge problem. They would need to give Ninja ranged buffs that are something like 3 times better than what RNG, the premiere ranged job, for Shuriken to be in any way useful. This is like asking them to give NIN stronger MAB and MBB traits than BLM and give them better magic damage weapons- it's not in any way realistic.

I did 5k+ nukes in abyssea pre-delve (Futae); my casting time was also shorter than a blm and I received no complaints. Rapid NI spells also rack up as opposed to slowly casting a blm spell; ever wonder why you seen blms casting tier 1 spells recently? That is how NI spells were in abyssea (And abyssea was akin to delve at the time).


You mean those levels where barely any haste gear exists?

Nope; even at 99 shurikens were strong; and I was only using Fumas. like i said, the only thing missing were JAs, WS, and traits. Sange crits 2.8kish in bird pts pre-delve. Having the innin penalty removed under this stance and a lower sange recast would equate to massive damage.

Again, the problem is that using the suggestions you have made, they would need to be ridiculously exaggerated changes for them to mean anything. If at some point they decide that they want to completely revamp how ranged attacks work, great...but they haven't done it for 12 years, and since Matsui's been up they've been pretty good about trying to rebalance the major broken aspects of the game, and something as big as a ranged attack adjustment has never been mentioned a single time. In case you're wondering what I mean by the adjustment, it would mean making ranged attack another type of autoattack, so it wouldn't be overly reliant on players doing something monotonous to be good and it would assumedly eliminate that annoying aftershot delay.

There was no pet food for 12 years, despite bst wondering about it, but behold! It comes next update. Also, a revamp is what we are asking for. Throwing stance; there is no throwing stance in-game therefore it would need to be implemented, hence revamp throwing.

That sort of thing is what you should be asking for if you want shurikens to be fixed, and not things like a throwing stance and triple throw. You don't ask for a cherry if you don't have ice cream.

That is your opinion, this thread is about a throwing stance. The OP asked for a stance, not an auto-attack.

As to why I'm in this thread, I'm giving feedback as to why it's a bad suggestion. It would be a complete waste of dev time and fix NIN in absolutely no way whatsoever. Unfortunately from a realistic view job changes are a zero-sum game. I don't want the devs to think that this would actually be a good idea unless they're prepared to add things on the magnitude I suggested.

That is your opinion; you are entitled to it. But all of your suggestion are great, right? Which is why your post had 1 like and the OP's had six? Six ppl want throwing, one does not. Never said you could not post here btw.


My posts are the most objective in the entire thread because they actually talk about game mechanics instead of simply what I feel like would be cool.

And yet; we still want throwing, but yes, your statistics were real pretty. The range attack stance will be a revamp to throwing; which includes game mechanics. You also mentioned things we are aware of which is why we want a revamp.

As for SAMs using their bows, I can see something like that happening, but the ranged stance would be unnecessary for that. Almost the only time SAMs use their bow is during WSs because Namas Arrow's enmity effect is great. If they're ever taken over RNGs in ranged fights its only because someone can't find any.

Not really; seen sams murder delve with range ws. There is more than one way to skin a cat; so what if rngs are more proficient than sams in the range department; we want versatility. I want my friend to come to an event; damn no rng? Np, nin can do this aswell.

Before you mention throwing WS, it's been stated multiple times that they can't do it from a system standpoint. If they have fixed this it might be somewhat interesting to have lots of new WS to play wth, I suppose, but it'd only get used in the same way SAMs use Namas Arrow- they'd never just free fire the ranged weapon, it'd be get TP with your katanas and then fire a shuriken WS. That would actually fit into the current framework of the game.

This I can agree with, to an extent. The purpose of this thread is for a throwing stance; however, personally, I just want to use shurikens again and this is how I functioned as a shuriken ninja. I always thought; damn, my shurikens are much stronger than my katanas. I could get with this personally. However, I do not see why a throwing ws cannot be implemeted. It is a ranged ws........

Again, ask for shurikens if you want, but you should be asking for a total ranged attack overhauls and not for them to add things that wouldn't help at all.

Ummmmm...that is what this thread is about (I should probably copy and paste this to my sig or something, lol......)

Edit:Bah, forgot multi-quote XD.

[Darwena]

A long debate was made about throwing and sange there:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...nge-Update-Why

Same word, different peoples. Naruto fans that want shuriken and elite that try to explain how useless shuriken are now and why we shouldn't ask devs about it.

On my part... I'm probably spend my Dynamis currencies on something else than Kikoku cause Ninja kinda lost is shine now. Anyway, I play BST to farm them or been asked to come as BLU 99% of the time...

[Demonjustin]

[/B]
Ummmmm...that is what this thread is about (I should probably copy and paste this to my sig or something, lol......)

Edit:Bah, forgot multi-quote XD.

He's explaining how to make it useful. You can argue for the changes you want to see all you'd like, you're going at it from the perspective of wanting ranged attacks to be useful so you wanna throw ideas at it till it's better. He's looking at it from the perspective of what mathematically and in game will make it actually useful, rather than just better or cooler.

[WoW]

A long debate was made about throwing and sange there:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...nge-Update-Why

Same word, different peoples. Naruto fans that want shuriken and elite that try to explain how useless shuriken are now and why we shouldn't ask devs about it.

On my part... I'm probably spend my Dynamis currencies on something else than Kikoku cause Ninja kinda lost is shine now. Anyway, I play BST to farm them or been asked to come as BLU 99% of the time...

Nice find, forgot about that thread. Lol, @a 146dmg weapon being impossible (Pre-delve)they did mentioned a relic shuriken; hmmmm.

If they do not want to implement a throwing stance; fine, however, i would still like a use for shurikens. I have never seen a job with so many A grade skills that were completely useless. At the very least turn sange into an instant attack; remove innin stance requirement, and give us a shuriken ws/JA. When you take a step back and observe the current situation, all of our suggestions will need a revamp/re-haul. For instance; shurikens can go off during strikes, but they are range weapons; therefore are affected by ranged acc. Low acc could equate to misses, notably on harder mobs. A stance would need more of a complete overhaul, but it will fall in line with the current range acc/att gear because it is a stance, which focuses on range attack.

However, what do you guys/gals think of this; our katanas having some magic attack on them, a shuriken which possess stats aswell (+throwing skill, attack, and acc), also, a shuriken attack JA that has skillchain properties. For instance Blade Hi > "Insert shuriken name"= darkness self sc then magic burst with Hyoton san or something. This should be efficient, if our 106+ katanas had magic attack on them (The shuriken can have +throwingskill, acc, and att); this way a ninja could function without having to sacrifice haste and whatnot.

Edit: The JA could have a reasonable recast; say 2 mins? Doing the aforementioned may make nin a efficient job once again, Notably removing the innin stance requirement. Imo, the boost should decay from the front, but not from the back.

[WoW]

He's explaining how to make it useful. You can argue for the changes you want to see all you'd like, you're going at it from the perspective of wanting ranged attacks to be useful so you wanna throw ideas at it till it's better. He's looking at it from the perspective of what mathematically and in game will make it actually useful, rather than just better or cooler.

You missed the point; he stated that we should ask for a complete overhaul.....that is what the thread is about/what I asked for. This is what I was referring to about copying and pasting, lol........Thanks for contributing............

Kin did make A suggestion that I gave a thumbs up btw. You are turning this into a battle, I am not at war with Kin, just tired of typing "overhaul" when we all agreed that this is what it would take. Also, we all took mathematics into account; our damage is determined by those number thingys on the screen..........................

[Kincard]

But all of your suggestion are great, right? Which is why your post had 1 like and the OP's had six? Six ppl want throwing, one does not.

I could just as easily point out how dozens of people on any community site that isn't this one would agree with me that adding a throwing stance is completely pointless, that doesn't prove anything. Nice populum argument though, I guess?

Then you back-peddled and admitted that nin nuking was pretty good at 99 pre-delve (Abyssea nin nuking is still insane)

I never once said NIN nuking was in any way good at 99, I said the exact opposite.

And Abyssea? Seriously? Nobody cares how much damage you do in there, otherwise NIN would still be invited as one of the kings of melee DPS.

Again; you clearly stated that any emphasis on throwing is a bad idea.

Yes, it's a bad idea because it'll be a lot of dev time investment in something that will almost certainly be useless. It doesn't mean I don't like the idea of throwing, it means I think it's a waste of time given how rarely the devs adjust jobs and how the adjustments are always relatively minor.

I did 5k+ nukes in abyssea pre-delve (Futae); my casting time was also shorter than a blm and I received no complaints.

Yes, lots of NINs had fun stacking tons and tons of magic attack and elemental attack atma and then doing big nukes to useless fodder enemies, but that doesn't in any way translates out to being useful. If you will recall, BLMs had barely any use in Abyssea (unless people wanted weaknesses) and they continue to have little use. But like I said, for this if they just put magic attack on katanas, it'd probably fix the problem, since elemental ninjutsus have very low base damage so magic attack would make them much, much stronger. Elemental ninjutsu has a much simpler fix than throwing but they haven't done it for whatever reason.

Nope; even at 99 shurikens were strong; and I was only using Fumas

No, they weren't. Fuma Shuriken had 72 damage, you could've easily outpaced that with just Arisui. They were nothing but a waste of money. Congrats that you spiked 3k damage on something when every single person could do that much using a WS? You took longer too, since you had to use Sange, then throw your shuriken.

That is your opinion, this thread is about a throwing stance. The OP asked for a stance, not an auto-attack.

It's a thread about an idea which is subject to feedback, I am giving my suggestion of what would be a better way to fix throwing than a stance. Changing throwing to an alternate auto attack would be far more useful to achieve what you want than adding a throwing stance within the current system.

Not really; seen sams murder delve with range ws. There is more than one way to skin a cat; so what if rngs are more proficient than sams in the range department; we want versatility. I want my friend to come to an event; damn no rng? Np, nin can do this aswell.

Which is exactly what I said? SAMs use Namas Arrow because it's a strong WS and it has reduced enmity, but they're not going to be dry shooting with the bow unless somebody couldn't find a RNG.

While I can agree with the idea of versatility, like I said, there's multiple obstacles, the least of which should be a throwing stance. It's things like the aftershot delay, the lack of throwing WS, throwing's sweet spot, etc. All these need to be changed before or while adding any sort of stance.

However, I do not see why a throwing ws cannot be implemeted. It is a ranged ws........

I don't know, that you'll have to ask the devs, but people have asked for this since even before the official forums existed and they've never given an answer other than that it was either very difficult or impossible to do.

that is what this thread is about

Please stop saying this like I don't know. Instead, familiarize yourself with the idea that part of discussing an idea is supposed to be about improving it, or discarding useless ones.

You keep saying that they should add a ranged stance, and I keep trying to explain to you why that would not fix anything, even if it was the most exaggerated buff in the game's history. After years of 0 responses on the Ninja forum you guys manage to milk one out and it's about throwing, which is inargubly the most useless skill in the entire game. (yes im slightly butthurt about that) If that's really what they think should be fixed about NIN, then I'm giving the hard numbers on what this change should look like, because what has been suggested so far would be Footwork all over again- people would log in, play with it for an hour, and then realize how worthless it is.

However, what do you guys/gals think of this ; our katanas having some magic attack on them, a shuriken which possess stats aswell (+throwing skill, attack, and acc), also, a shuriken attack JA that has skillchain properties. For instance Blade Hi > "Insert shuriken name"= darkness self sc then magic burst with Hyoton san or something. This should be efficient, if our 106+ katanas had magic attack on them (The shuriken can have +throwingskill, acc, and att); this way a ninja could function without having to sacrifice haste and whatnot.

Okay, cool, now we're getting somewhere. This is an interesting idea and I wouldn't mind things like this. The problem with the stance idea was that it implied a desire to make shuriken just another way to do damage, which is spending a whole lot of time to make something that's not only a lead balloon, but also redundant for the job.

If they added the skillchain property to Sange that would make it essentially become a Sekkanoki/Chain Affinity for NIN. Might be cool.

[WoW]

I could just as easily point out how dozens of people on any community site that isn't this one would agree with me that adding a throwing stance is completely pointless, that doesn't prove anything. Nice populum argument though, I guess?

it is what it is, you stated that this was a bad idea, 6 likes compered to your one.

I never once said NIN nuking was in any way good at 99, I said the exact opposite.

Then you were wrong.

And Abyssea? Seriously? Nobody cares how much damage you do in there, otherwise NIN would still be invited as one of the kings of melee DPS.

Abyssea was the $hit back then

Yes, it's a bad idea because it'll be a lot of dev time investment in something that will almost certainly be useless. It doesn't mean I don't like the idea of throwing, it means I think it's a waste of time given how rarely the devs adjust jobs and how the adjustments are always relatively minor.

Again, you are one person; one like to 6 likes.

Yes, lots of NINs had fun stacking tons and tons of magic attack and elemental attack atma and then doing big nukes to useless fodder enemies, but that doesn't in any way translates out to being useful. If you will recall, BLMs had barely any use in Abyssea (unless people wanted weaknesses) and they continue to have little use. But like I said, for this if they just put magic attack on katanas, it'd probably fix the problem, since elemental ninjutsus have very low base damage so magic attack would make them much, much stronger. Elemental ninjutsu has a much simpler fix than throwing but they haven't done it for whatever reason.

Again, abyssea was the $hit back then and I drew ooohs and ahhhhs.



No, they weren't. Fuma Shuriken had 72 damage, you could've easily outpaced that with just Arisui. They were nothing but a waste of money. Congrats that you spiked 3k damage on something when every single person could do that much using a WS? You took longer too, since you had to use Sange, then throw your shuriken.

Not really, used sange to pull; hence dd did not get a chance to make it to the mob before sange hit it like a truck.

It's a thread about an idea which is subject to feedback, I am giving my suggestion of what would be a better way to fix throwing than a stance. Changing throwing to an alternate auto attack would be far more useful to achieve what you want than adding a throwing stance within the current system.

Not really, throwing is a range attack, thus reliant on range acc, if you gear for melee; there will be a shuriken whiff fest. However, I previously stated that a stance would require a overhaul as did you. However, if you read my previous comments and stop being so hung up on convincing me, you will see that i referenced +throwing skill on the shurikens which could alleviate that.

Which is exactly what I said? SAMs use Namas Arrow because it's a strong WS and it has reduced enmity, but they're not going to be dry shooting with the bow unless somebody couldn't find a RNG.

Sams are great with a bow; we agree.

While I can agree with the idea of versatility, like I said, there's multiple obstacles, the least of which should be a throwing stance. It's things like the aftershot delay, the lack of throwing WS, throwing's sweet spot, etc. All these need to be changed before or while adding any sort of stance.

We know this.......again; throwing stance will need an overhaul because....it does not exist in-game? And throwing is useless atm?

I don't know, that you'll have to ask the devs, but people have asked for this since even before the official forums existed and they've never given an answer other than that it was either very difficult or impossible to do.

So, did a dev say that this was impossible to implement or is this your assumption?

Please stop saying this like I don't know. Instead, familiarize yourself with the idea that part of discussing an idea is supposed to be about improving it, or discarding useless ones.

I am inclined to believe that you do; but you are so hung up on convincing me/getting the last word. You clearly stated that we should be asking for a overhaul to throwing, but you acknowledged that this stance would require just that, which is the point of this thread.

You keep saying that they should add a ranged stance, and I keep trying to explain to you why that would not fix anything, even if it was the most exaggerated buff in the game's history. After years of 0 responses on the Ninja forum you guys manage to milk one out and it's about throwing, which is inargubly the most useless skill in the entire game. (yes im slightly butthurt about that) If that's really what they think should be fixed about NIN, then I'm giving the hard numbers on what this change should look like, because what has been suggested so far would be Footwork all over again- people would log in, play with it for an hour, and then realize how worthless it is.

throwing was not always useless, clearly you have never been a shuriken ninja if you believe that it is useless. Crappy now? Yes, but don't pretend like throwing never had a place. perhaps I am the ninja master or something, but i did great with shurikens at one point.