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  1. #1
    Player Griblit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    19
    Character
    Griblit
    World
    Bismarck
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99

    Ninja Ability Suggestion

    As you're probably aware, NINs have been a bit unusable lately, particularly in Delve and the AA battles. To help alleviate this, and to provide more options for party setups, I think it would be great to have a new Ranged Attack "stance" added to NIN's options.

    This ability would greatly enhance a NIN's ranged attack and accuracy, and possibly open up throwing abilities and/or WSs, while greatly lowering melee damage/acc and evasion.

    I think this would be a good way to make NINs usable again while providing group setups a good ranged alternative to just RNG all the time.
    (6)

  2. #2
    Player Dragomair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    105
    Character
    Dragomair
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 99
    Good idea.

    My reply on a similar thread about NIN ranged:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragomair View Post
    Just my idea for improving shuriken for level 99+:
    (probably been suggested before.)
    Maybe a job point or merit job ability (that would work similar to the rune enchantment job ability for RUN) that would add certain effects to the ammo?
    (Example:
    Enchantment #1: Silence effect
    Enchantment #2: Stun effect
    Enchantment #3: Attack down effect
    Enchantment #4: Evasion down effect
    Enchantment #5: Accuracy down effect)

    There are probably many more effects that would be better, but I can't think of anything that wouldn't be thought of as 'game-breaking'.
    (0)

  3. #3
    Player Puck's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    232
    Character
    Kheper
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    WHM Lv 1
    NIN tanking never made much sense to begin with, but it's sad to see a job get shafted this badly. Making NIN into another super-low enmity DD would be a great idea, and fits the image of what a ninja is supposed to be. And, like RNG, they would then make nice companions for PLD tanks. NINs and PLDs, working together?! Madness!
    (4)

  4. #4
    Player WoW's Avatar
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    Nov 2013
    Posts
    400
    Character
    Razorbeast
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    This should definitely have more likes; I know there are more nins out there^^

    But yes, that will be awesome. It would open up the door for a ranged ninja, akin to range sams. We are overdue for a throwing weaponskill.

    Can a dev comment on this? Would be interesting to say the least.
    (0)

  5. #5
    Player Kincard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    648
    Character
    Kincard
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 99
    No, making throwing any sort of emphasis for Ninja at this point is a bad idea. This has been discussed many times through the years and I can only assume the people that still suggest it are either relatively new to the job or arn't as familiar with the mechanics NIN as some of the long-time jaded players of it are (most of them don't even post around here anymore, I'm guessing lots of them have quit the game). Basically throwing would need a complete and total overhaul to be useful simply because of how the game works, and compared to all the other things you could do to make Ninja better it's just not a good route.

    Dragomair's idea of adding effects on shuriken sounds fine until you realize it's completely redundant with ninjutsu- if you wanted to give Ninjas better debuff/buff support, it should be through these instead of shurikens because:
    1. Debuff/buff ninjutsu takes significantly less inventory space (Although with Mog Wardrobe coming up I suppose that's less of a concern), through the fact that you need to both carry a dedicated throwing set and you need to carry the shuriken themselves, whereas right now good NINs already carry both a Ninjutsu set and their tools with them anyway
    2. Debuff shuriken will undoubtedly have a magic accuracy modifier and that means they will probably be less efficient than simply adding a spell that depends on just that stat instead of needing to have ranged accuracy for it too

    Be careful what you wish for by the way. Because of Ninja's versatility if they ever improved throwing it would be very limited because of SE's take on how they balance the game. Then Ninjas will have basically "wasted" their chance at an actual fix for the job for something that's nothing but a gimmick. It would be nice if they could fix every problem with the job but given how rare job adjustments for older jobs tend to be it would be really nice if it wasn't used on something that'd end up being totally useless. You want them to add a ranged stance for NIN so that it can be bad at one more thing? By the way, the very idea of a ranged stance for Ninja is counter to the whole idea behind how it was designed since the sweet spot for throwing is melee ranged- apparently the game wanted NINs to be up close and just randomly throw shurikens every now and then, or something.

    My suggestion for "fixing" throwing for the people that truly want it? My idea lies in Sange. Do the following things:
    1. Make Sange applicable to returning weapons so people don't have to waste tons of inventory
    2. Add returning ranged weapons with good melee bonus stats
    3. Make Sange the action itself instead of being a buff you put on yourself for your next ranged attack
    Make throwing just something Ninjas do every few minutes for damage spike, basically an extra WS every now and then.

    Melee-wise, the focus of a fix for NIN should be on the bad selection of WS and its laughable job trait/ability spread.
    Tank-wise, the focus of a fix is either to stop bothering and just make them a dedicated melee DPS, or to add something on the magnitude of ridiculousness that Ochain/Aegis have, some kind of ultra evading weapon (I would have suggested parrying somewhere when they added Issekigan but then they decided to take that idea away from NIN and give it to RUN).
    (2)

  6. #6
    Player Darwena's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    148
    Character
    Darwena
    World
    Carbuncle
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 99
    My suggestion for Ninja Is simple:

    •Mikan should be a job traits.
    •New hour ability should be something like all ninjutsu got double effect for the next 60sec. That include elemental, enfeebling and self buff.
    •Innin need to get rid of the "attack from behind". DD when tank is ok and switch to Yonin when adds or main tank start getting trouble.
    •add ninjutsu Ni spell. And make enfeebling ninjutsu stack with other spell. I never understood why different spell with same effect overwrites each other. Ninjustsu, enfeebling, Blue magic, Geomancy, Some JA should all stack on mobs. That will be to power full? So what, where we lack in pure melee dmg, we will compensate with stacking effect on boss fight.

    And about enfeebling shurikens: no... No... NO! We have ninjutsu. Want throwing shine again? Lower the delay to throw them, add triple throwing. Or simply don't use it as command but more like a proc: lime kick attack, ninja will throw shurikens with regular attack.
    (2)

    If it bleeds, I can kill it.
    If it doesn't bleeds...
    I can probably kill it too.

  7. #7
    Player Kincard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    648
    Character
    Kincard
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 99
    Mikan should be a job traits.
    Mikage. Also as nice as that would be it'd also be ridiculously broken.

    New hour ability should be something like all ninjutsu got double effect for the next 60sec. That include elemental, enfeebling and self buff.
    Meh. It'd make Utsusemi really useful and it'd give you a decent slow/blind/yurin for a while, but it's basically throwaway for everything else. Migawari wouldn't change much, Elemental Ninjutsu are total trash, Myoshu and Kakka arn't worth casting mid-battle, and Jubaku sucks.

    Innin need to get rid of the "attack from behind".
    Yes, please do this, SE.

    add ninjutsu Ni spell
    Yes, this too. Even if they were the exact same potency as the Ichis, extra duration and faster cast speed alone are worth something. Kakka: Ni would probably be worth putting up.
    Some new debuffs wouldn't hurt either. Defense down, Silence, Sleep? These would all be great.

    But really, I'd rather they give NIN new traits, take a look at the trait list for NIN:
    Stealth: Whatever
    Resist Bind: Filler JT basically every job has
    Dual Wield: Awesome
    Subtle Blow: Okay
    Tactical Parry: Meh
    Magic Burst Bonus: Useless
    Skillchain Bonus: Useless

    Compare this to the types of traits your powerhouse DDs get, or even other one-handers like THF, DNC, or BLU. NIN needs one or more of the following:
    Accuracy Bonus
    Attack Bonus
    Evasion Bonus
    Critical Damage Bonus
    Critical Rate Bonus
    Inquartata
    Double Attack (If they added this subjobs other than WAR may become more popular in groups)
    Note that obviously I'm not asking for every single one of these (unless they decided to give NIN level 1 in all of them so they become an "all-around" fighter, which would also be kinda cool I guess). In particular it's ridiculous that THF, DNC and even WAR and DRK of all jobs got Crit. Attack Bonus when NIN didn't. But as a side note, take into consideration that even if NIN got every single last one of these traits, they still wouldn't be that great of a DD because the real power of most DDs in this game lies in their abilities. Things like Last Resort, Berserk, Meditate/Sekkanoki and Saber Dance are generally way more powerful than any trait can be.
    (0)
    Last edited by Kincard; 05-04-2014 at 12:42 AM.

  8. #8
    Player WoW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    400
    Character
    Razorbeast
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Kincard View Post
    No, making throwing any sort of emphasis for Ninja at this point is a bad idea. This has been discussed many times through the years and I can only assume the people that still suggest it are either relatively new to the job or arn't as familiar with the mechanics NIN as some of the long-time jaded players of it are (most of them don't even post around here anymore, I'm guessing lots of them have quit the game). Basically throwing would need a complete and total overhaul to be useful simply because of how the game works, and compared to all the other things you could do to make Ninja better it's just not a good route.

    Dragomair's idea of adding effects on shuriken sounds fine until you realize it's completely redundant with ninjutsu- if you wanted to give Ninjas better debuff/buff support, it should be through these instead of shurikens because:
    1. Debuff/buff ninjutsu takes significantly less inventory space (Although with Mog Wardrobe coming up I suppose that's less of a concern), through the fact that you need to both carry a dedicated throwing set and you need to carry the shuriken themselves, whereas right now good NINs already carry both a Ninjutsu set and their tools with them anyway
    2. Debuff shuriken will undoubtedly have a magic accuracy modifier and that means they will probably be less efficient than simply adding a spell that depends on just that stat instead of needing to have ranged accuracy for it too

    Be careful what you wish for by the way. Because of Ninja's versatility if they ever improved throwing it would be very limited because of SE's take on how they balance the game. Then Ninjas will have basically "wasted" their chance at an actual fix for the job for something that's nothing but a gimmick. It would be nice if they could fix every problem with the job but given how rare job adjustments for older jobs tend to be it would be really nice if it wasn't used on something that'd end up being totally useless. You want them to add a ranged stance for NIN so that it can be bad at one more thing? By the way, the very idea of a ranged stance for Ninja is counter to the whole idea behind how it was designed since the sweet spot for throwing is melee ranged- apparently the game wanted NINs to be up close and just randomly throw shurikens every now and then, or something.

    My suggestion for "fixing" throwing for the people that truly want it? My idea lies in Sange. Do the following things:
    1. Make Sange applicable to returning weapons so people don't have to waste tons of inventory
    2. Add returning ranged weapons with good melee bonus stats
    3. Make Sange the action itself instead of being a buff you put on yourself for your next ranged attack
    Make throwing just something Ninjas do every few minutes for damage spike, basically an extra WS every now and then.

    Melee-wise, the focus of a fix for NIN should be on the bad selection of WS and its laughable job trait/ability spread.
    Tank-wise, the focus of a fix is either to stop bothering and just make them a dedicated melee DPS, or to add something on the magnitude of ridiculousness that Ochain/Aegis have, some kind of ultra evading weapon (I would have suggested parrying somewhere when they added Issekigan but then they decided to take that idea away from NIN and give it to RUN).
    I am not a new nin nor unfamiliar with the game mechanics; but I ask you, are you familiar with shurikens? I used these exclusively at lower lvls. I still recall using juji's in a JP party with a pld trying to rip hate from me; yes, rip hate from a lvl 31 ninja (True story). I also recall partying in the jungle absolutely destroying mandies; "this nin is pretty good" best mt ever, lol.

    I respect your opinion, but as someone who found success with them, I strongly disagree. Shurikens are insanely powerful; a lvl 119 shuriken would be bananas^^

    I agree with Darwena's suggestions, lower the delay and add triple throwing or something. I would love a dev response, shurikens are awesome; there are some of us out here whom loved throwing. This weapon should not fall by the way side, considering nin has a A- skill in it.

    If anyone finds shurikens or a throwing stance useless; lvl sync down to 18-55 using the proper shurikens and you may change your mind, lol (Berserk + shurikens^^). Seriously, I thought throwing was useless aswell, until I tried it. The delay and the lack of a ws/traits makes this undesirable at 119. A stance would be perfect.

    Wonder what SE thinks though?
    (0)
    Last edited by WoW; 05-04-2014 at 02:56 AM.

  9. #9
    Player Kincard's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    648
    Character
    Kincard
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    NIN Lv 99
    If you know how the mechanics of the game work, then you should know that stuff works completely differently at level 99 than they do at level 30, 50 or whatever, and you would know why when people use RNGs, they either almost exclusively use RNGs and when they don't, they are basically never taken over a good melee. Yes, Shuriken are great at those low levels, but that's only because you have close to 0 haste gear and very weak dual wield at that level. By that logic elemental ninjutsu should be amazing because they completely wreck everything when you first get them at level 40.

    Let me just illustrate this for you: Shuriken typically have 192 delay. This means they have a base delay of about 1.81, add to that an extra 1 second because of the after-fire delay.

    My usual katana setup is Kannagi/Shigi, so 106/98 damage with 400 total delay- let's just say 102 damage each hand to make this simple. In good gear right now, Ninjas can hit the 80% delay reduction cap with white magic haste alone- there are almost 0 situations where a NIN is going to be not capped on melee delay reduction somehow. This means I'm already down to 80 actual delay, which translates out to about 1.33 seconds.

    Now consider that, in my hasted TP gear, I have +12% double attack, +5% triple attack, and +4% quadruple attack (I don't even have the best gear). Add +10% DA from the WAR subjob. This means each swing I make is actually about 1.4 swings (rounding it down to bias this in favor of shurikens). I swing twice a turn anyway, so I get 2.8 attacks a turn.

    In order for the D value on the Shurikens to be effectively the same, it would need to be 102 x 2.8 x (2.81/1.33) = 603.41D. To put that in perspective, that's more than twice the D value of the highest D value you can find in the game right now.

    What about snapshot, you say? It'd help out a little, but it's not worth very much on Shurikens because snapshot only reduces aiming delay and that bothersome +1s will always be there (Even if you somehow hit, say, 50% snapshot, I'd still need the Shurikens to have about 408D to be equal to my katanas). By the way, we're already assuming that you hit your RA macro 100% perfectly each time.

    Now add onto that the fact that Ninjas have no accuracy traits and a poor selection of ranged gear. They'd need to add a bunch of new gear just for NINs that throw.

    All that just to be equal to something we already have. I haven't even factored in things like my Kannagi's ODD.

    Shurikens will always be useless unless they just completely revamp how ranged attacks work or actually decide to add something like a 1000D shuriken. I'd rather they not waste their time on something that will almost certainly be disappointing.
    (2)
    Last edited by Kincard; 05-04-2014 at 03:25 AM.

  10. #10
    Player WoW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    400
    Character
    Razorbeast
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Kincard View Post
    If you know how the mechanics of the game work, then you should know that stuff works completely differently at level 99 than they do at level 30, 50 or whatever, and you would know why when people use RNGs, they either almost exclusively use RNGs and when they don't, they are basically never taken over a good melee. Yes, Shuriken are great at those low levels, but that's only because you have close to 0 haste gear and very weak dual wield at that level. By that logic elemental ninjutsu should be amazing because they completely wreck everything when you first get them at level 40.

    Let me just illustrate this for you: Shuriken typically have 192 delay. This means they have a base delay of about 1.81, add to that an extra 1 second because of the after-fire delay.

    My usual katana setup is Kannagi/Shigi, so 106/98 damage with 400 total delay- let's just say 102 damage each hand to make this simple. In good gear right now, Ninjas can hit the 80% delay reduction cap with white magic haste alone- there are almost 0 situations where a NIN is going to be not capped on melee delay reduction somehow. This means I'm already down to 80 actual delay, which translates out to about 1.33 seconds.

    Now consider that, in my hasted TP gear, I have +12% double attack, +5% triple attack, and +4% quadruple attack (I don't even have the best gear). Add +10% DA from the WAR subjob. This means each swing I make is actually about 1.4 swings (rounding it down to bias this in favor of shurikens). I swing twice a turn anyway, so I get 2.8 attacks a turn.

    In order for the D value on the Shurikens to be effectively the same, it would need to be 102 x 2.8 x (2.81/1.33) = 603.41D. To put that in perspective, that's more than twice the D value of the highest D value you can find in the game right now.

    What about snapshot, you say? It'd help out a little, but it's not worth very much on Shurikens because snapshot only reduces aiming delay and that bothersome +1s will always be there (Even if you somehow hit, say, 50% snapshot, I'd still need the Shurikens to have about 408D to be equal to my katanas). By the way, we're already assuming that you hit your RA macro 100% perfectly each time.

    Now add onto that the fact that Ninjas have no accuracy traits and a poor selection of ranged gear. They'd need to add a bunch of new gear just for NINs that throw.

    All that just to be equal to something we already have. I haven't even factored in things like my Kannagi's ODD.

    Shurikens will always be useless unless they just completely revamp how ranged attacks work or actually decide to add something like a 1000D shuriken. I'd rather they not waste their time on something that will almost certainly be disappointing.
    You threw out a ton of statistics, however, your argument is still off base (As it pertains to this thread, we are aware of the game mechanics man......lol, gheessh). Also; did we not mention a range stance? I am assuming that this stance would include throwing traits and JAs. I disagree with your opinion, fine, no harm, no foul, but i am not going to use the game mechanics as a cope out. Yes, I am aware of haste gear; dual wield, and weapon delay. Shurikens are known to have much higher damage than katanas. For instance, the kikoku has 42 damage at lvl 75 210 delay, correct? The koga shuriken has 88 dmg 192 delay. We are aware of the game mechanics, which is why the OP suggested a ninja stance. This will also include JAs and traits which makes throwing more efficient (A triple attack trait like the poster above me mentioned would allow rapid tp; add that to a low delay shuriken). Yes your EMP has the after math effect, but shurikens have much higher damage than a katana. They could also just add a trait which occasionally causes shuriken to do double damage. The possibilities are out there; lets not just dismiss something because you disagree with it. One more thing, a 119 shuriken would most likely have say...close to 200 dmg; imagine a nin ws with 200dmg.

    Also ninjistu, does do good damage at 99.

    Edit: They could use rapid tp accumulation and ws usage as a way to counter the loss of dual wield and haste. My only concern is that this could very well make katanas a secondary weapon; akin to rngs and their axes. I have used shurikens; these things are the most underrated weapons in the entire game; they were even great pre delve at 99 with sange. Loved pulling abyssea birds; 2.8k crits for ftw^^ Also, ninja does have range gear, it is even on the reforged armor; which is puzzling atm.
    (0)
    Last edited by WoW; 05-04-2014 at 04:45 AM.

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