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  1. #1
    Player Byrth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,172
    Character
    Byrth
    World
    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99

    DD Trusts are terrible

    The Double CP Campaign has driven me to try and get some job points on Bard for the next update. I don't need songs when I'm playing BRD, so I called out Cherukiki and two DDs. Unfortunately, this exposed me to the horribleness that are Trust DDs. I am only killing ~Level 108 monsters, but I still do more than 10 times as much damage as the NPCs... on bard.

    My conditions for this are:
    * /checkparam reports I my average iLevel is 119
    * The Trusts have capped hit rate
    * The Trusts also get Victory March/Advancing March/Valor Minuet III/Mage's Ballad III/Haste Samba
    If the NPCs were players, there would be no excuse for this kind of performance gap given the above information. The problem seems to be that they basically hit for 1/3 as much as me. I don't know if it's an attack issue or a base damage issue, but I suspect it's base damage.


    Suggestions:
    * Give NPCs Equipment Haste that matches their iLevel. - I know that gear slots have some kind of default Haste value now based on iLevel, so just sum that up and apply it to NPCs.
    * Increase NPC base damage. - NPCs hit for 1/3 as much as players. You could double their damage and still not risk displacing players.


    There would still be a massive DPS difference (between BRD/DNC and melee NPCs) after making these changes, but it will be a little less massive.
    (17)
    Last edited by Byrth; 04-19-2014 at 06:48 AM.

  2. #2
    Player Mirage's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,980
    I can attest to this as well. Trust DDs are really really bad. A melee job can be very well supported by the support Trusts, but a support/healing job is very poorly supported by melee Trusts.
    (7)

  3. #3
    Player Rwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    410
    Character
    Rwolf
    World
    Bismarck
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    I agree with the OP as well. Given how incredibly useful pure healer and support Trusts are, I see no logical reason for the damage capability of both Physical and Magical trusts not to be on par. Even if Trust NPCs dealt as much damage as a 119 DD. They still do not have the ability to actively think for themselves, adapt, and stack abilities at the right time. It wouldn't change anything with the current system, it would just allow jobs that are physical damage inept to be just as quick as a DD job with healer/support trusts.
    (2)

  4. #4
    Community Rep Camate's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,712
    Greetings,

    A post I made previously in a separate thread talks about this very topic.

    Since players are able to summon multiple alter egos at the same time, simply enhancing their stats would have a large effect on battle balance, so the team would like to look into this carefully.

    In the future we will be implementing an alter ego customization feature, and the team is looking into making it so attack specialization can be one of the ways you can customize your alter egos. Once more information on this system has been finalized I’ll be sure to make a follow-up!
    (12)
    Devin "Camate" Casadey - Community Team

  5. #5
    Player Byrth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,172
    Character
    Byrth
    World
    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Camate View Post
    Greetings,

    A post I made previously in a separate thread talks about this very topic.

    Since players are able to summon multiple alter egos at the same time, simply enhancing their stats would have a large effect on battle balance, so the team would like to look into this carefully.

    In the future we will be implementing an alter ego customization feature, and the team is looking into making it so attack specialization can be one of the ways you can customize your alter egos. Once more information on this system has been finalized I’ll be sure to make a follow-up!

    Previous Post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Camate View Post
    Greetings!

    We've been seeing some feedback mentioning that when fighting high level monsters, Trust alter egos' accuracy and attack power felt somewhat low and would not rise above a certain value.

    The stats on alter egos have been slightly scaled back at the upper echelons of item levels. Originally, Trust alter egos were developed to aid low level adventurers and for when adventuring solo, so if you are out fighting against strong enemies in Outer Ra’Kaznar, you may feel accuracy or other stats are a bit lacking.

    However, we understand that you would like to use alter egos even at the high levels and we checked up on some tips to make it easier to use your alter ego.
    1. Procure equipment with high item levels
      Trust alter ego stats reference the average item level of your equipment. Due to this, instead of worrying about individual parameters, just wearing equipment with higher item levels will boost the stats of the alter egos you use. To give you an example, if you go from wearing two pieces of item level 109 equipment and then trade them out for two pieces of 117 equipment from Records of Eminence, the alter ego’s accuracy will increase close to 10%.

    2. Utilize support effects
      Trust alter egos are treated the same was as if they were another player in your party, so all support effects such as spells, songs, and rolls can be applied to them. By applying these buffs to support-type alter egos or those with a support-type support job, their accuracy will increase further.


    Though for the future, we are currently looking into elements that will allow you to boost the special characteristics of Trust alter egos, which will also in turn increase their stats.

    OP:
    Quote Originally Posted by Byrth View Post
    The Double CP Campaign has driven me to try and get some job points on Bard for the next update. I don't need songs when I'm playing BRD, so I called out Cherukiki and two DDs. Unfortunately, this exposed me to the horribleness that are Trust DDs. I am only killing ~Level 108 monsters, but I still do more than 10 times as much damage as the NPCs... on bard.

    My conditions for this are:
    * /checkparam reports I my average iLevel is 119
    * The Trusts have capped hit rate
    * The Trusts also get Victory March/Advancing March/Valor Minuet III/Mage's Ballad III/Haste Samba
    If the NPCs were players, there would be no excuse for this kind of performance gap given the above information. The problem seems to be that they basically hit for 1/3 as much as me. I don't know if it's an attack issue or a base damage issue, but I suspect it's base damage.


    Suggestions:
    * Give NPCs Equipment Haste that matches their iLevel. - I know that gear slots have some kind of default Haste value now based on iLevel, so just sum that up and apply it to NPCs.
    * Increase NPC base damage. - NPCs hit for 1/3 as much as players. You could double their damage and still not risk displacing players.



    There would still be a massive DPS difference (between BRD/DNC and melee NPCs) after making these changes, but it will be a little less massive.

    Thanks for replying, Camate.

    As far as balance issues, I'm not really sure what you're talking about. My 4-song Mythic BRD/DNC (my best mage soloer) cannot match my DNC/SAM's CP/hr rate because it lacks DPS. It lacks DPS even though it trades 2 BRD Trusts for 2 DD trusts. I assumed the purpose of Trusts and providing a variety of Trust roles was to enable lowman content for all jobs. If that's the case, then a DD Trust boost would provide balance by enabling mages to utilize the system effectively.

    The question is then how to accomplish it. In my post, I wasn't talking about their accuracy or (probably) attack/stats, because as far as I can tell those are acceptable. I was talking about their lack of Haste from the "equipment" category and base weapon damage. It is standard for melee to have at least 25% Equipment Haste just by putting on iLevel gear now, but Trusts appear to receive 0% Equipment Haste. When stacked with Haste and March x2, 25% equipment Haste increases DPS by 80%. This feels like oversight rather than some intentional nerf to trust damage, so I adjust Trust DPS by fixing that first. After that, you could do the remaining adjustments using Trust base damage.
    (14)

  6. #6
    Player Windwhisper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    120
    Character
    Windwhispering
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 99
    Oh please. Let us enable/disable certain behaviour.

    Joachim doesnt need throwing. I so wish that i could disable it. Thank you
    (1)

  7. #7
    can't say I approve of this, having to spend what is most likely going to turn out to be massive grind time just get trust NPC's to doing what any real player of that class should be doing regardless, i.e. a sam like Ayame self-skillchaining, etc. and there are certain silly limitations as we speak, ex. why does a 119 Cherrukki only have access to Regen 3 when all other whms would have regen 4? shouldn't Ajido be casting refresh on himself and the other mages given his /rdm? you get the ideas.
    (3)

  8. #8
    Player saevel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,350
    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Windwhisper View Post
    Oh please. Let us enable/disable certain behaviour.

    Joachim doesnt need throwing. I so wish that i could disable it. Thank you
    I just want to be able to have some sort of control over their songs. I'm so tired of being on WAR or BLU and getting Paeon Paeon Ballad Ballad, or some other crap. The BRD's AI's seem really really bad, they seem almost random.
    (1)
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelix
    Ragnarok's aftermath is only 5% crit rate, even with lv99, so there's almost no point in using Scourge, you just spam Resolution. Even then you become just a boring meathead DD.

    Apoc with both Catastrophe and Entropy gives you crazy sustain of both HP and MP. With the Haste aftermath you can wear a ton of -PDT and solo almost any 75 content.
    Doing damage is for WAR's, DRK is about soloing 75 content yo.....

  9. #9
    Player Blah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    427
    Actually he casts mage's ballad and army's paeon for himself....when he's down 20 mp or hp....selfish jerk.
    (0)
    Please do not post if you are drunk, high or madly delirious from lack of sleep...HEY WHERE'S EVERYONE???

  10. #10
    Player
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,098
    I really think they should also use Pianissimo, it would help a ton with getting the wrong songs. I'm leveling RDM still, I almost always have a PLD tanking, that PLD sometimes gets low on HP and as a result I get the wrong songs. I think if they used Pianissimo we would get the right songs more often and it could even allow the NPC to determine the songs they cast depending on the job you're on and a set of variables rather than how it is now where it seems to be nothing but variables like HP/MP.
    (1)

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