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  1. #21
    Player Tennotsukai's Avatar
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    Apr 2011
    Posts
    577
    Character
    Tennotsukai
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Rwolf View Post
    I agree, it's not a community issue. It's a game balance issue. The community is not perfect and never will be. There will always be someone who will want more than is required. However, when they design content with devastating area of effect abilities and a broken enmity system. Players are naturally going to gravitate to the strategies used as of late.

    Even if Paladin could hold hate against close range melee jobs with no assistance, melee jobs get plastered with area of effect damage. Which is why Relic weapon Rangers are so attractive right now. They get around the broken enmity system, they have high survivability and most of all high damage. It's the same reasons Monk is so popular, high survivability and damage output. A lot of "damage dealers" don't have the accuracy, defense, or buffs (especially for pet jobs) to justify their slot, you'll easily time out with a lot of jobs unless they were perfectly geared. Which defeats the purpose because most of it comes from the fights, some jobs are trying to get invited to.

    Matsui needs to relinquish this vision that it's community responsibility to assist damage dealer jobs that are both not as durable or powerful, and support jobs that can't get close to White Mage or Bard. Why should any job be a help case? Shouldn't they all be equally helpful even if it's a different combination of jobs? It's one thing to help a friend, linkshell member or even a stranger get something that helps them be a better player. But it's entirely another to say the community is to blame that certain jobs are excluded from content. When the simple fact is certain jobs are just designed to best new content.

    I honestly think they can't figure out how to make balanced challenging content without making it grossly overpowered. I don't claim to have all the answers but a few things would help:

    Enfeebling effects need to matter more. (Example: Things like Blind should lower accuracy by a percentage. Attack Down should be more prevalent like defense down)
    Look into expanding instanced areas and increasing/removing timers. (Timers are obviously put on content to throttle congestion. However if everything is a time race, there is no room for defensive groups. Just pure offense)
    Give some alternative types of goals to high level content. (With expanding instances being unlikely: High level content with unconventional goals would expand job desirability. Meeble Burrows, Moblin Maze Mongers, and Assault are great examples of alternative goals)
    Unpopular jobs need a boost. (Figure out what direction you really want Red Mage to accel at and finally do it, make pets more attractive to compete in high level content, Dancer needs a better way to spam status removal to be any semblance of a healer)
    Magic Accuracy - There are so many awesome abilities and spells that could compete with other jobs if their magic accuracy didn't suck (Blue Mage, Dancer, etc)

    It's not a compendium of the issues in the game, but just some suggestions on opening the currently severely limited way content difficulty is produced.
    I couldn't agree more.
    (2)

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Demonjustin View Post
    This is really why 6-man Delve was a terrible idea, and even though I supported the idea at the time I now look back on it as the terrible idea it was. It only allowed people to reject even more players from the content and since the update I've been basically excluded from these runs personally because now no one even needs my job. Before people took not only more people but more jobs, it was common on Phoenix to take a mix of DRK, WAR, SAM, MNK, DRG, WHM, BRD, COR, SCH, GEO, and RDM. I was always the RDM in this setup and proud to do so because I finally had a use for my main again without having to bug others for an invite. However even with that being said we've moved to the point where parties go with MNK, DRK, DRG, BRD, WHM, and SCH only, and really the DRK & DRG are fairly rare. I've not seen 1 normal shout for an 18 man run at the new zones since release. I've been in 4 Tojil parties in 2 and a half months. The change was disastrous and it's all due to the very thing you're talking about.
    Actually, 6-man Delve would have been a terrific idea if Delve wasn't so badly designed to begin with. Delve's problems had nothing to do with how many people could go; they have always been 100% about content design. I was in the same boat as you and desperately wanted it to be low-man content, but the dev team's lack of foresight never fails to shock the players. The way they handled the Delve change was exactly like how they handled the Nyzul/Assault changes. Nothing is ever thought through before being implemented. They may as well just add a disclaimer saying: "If you were behind the curve on content, you can now enter solo, but you'll never succeed because we didn't take out the mechanics that prevented you from winning solo (same-time lamps etc.)." That is basically what we're seeing with Delve I now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Siviard View Post
    I do believe that the Development Team did well in lowering the total HP of Delve NMs in the fracture based on the number of people in the group was wonderful and it really did help out a bit. However, they did absolutely nothing to the NMs themselves, especially the Mega Bosses. The Mega Bosses still SPAM TP moves and those moves still have the power to destroy a full 18-person alliance. IMHO, that is a serious design flaw. Serious enough to the point that in order to defeat those Mega Bosses, only a select few jobs with very top-of-the-line gear (and 3rd party programs) have a shot at winning. Anything else involving a combination of different jobs? Complete and utter failure 100% of the time. Again, that is a very serious design flaw. NOT a Community problem.
    This is the real reason why 6-man Delve failed. You needed (and waited 3 hours for) stun SCHs who cheated to win in Delve I before the change; you still need one now. MNK/SAM vs every other DD. WHM vs every other healer. BRD vs every other buffer. Indeed, not a community problem.
    (4)

  3. #23
    Player Draylo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    778
    Cheated? You can easily stun on SCH now that everyone shifted to Yorcia.... So players being bad is what caused delve to fail? You realize you don't have to stun anything in the new delve zones with a 6 man crew?
    (1)

  4. #24
    I was referring to the first 3 Delve zones when talking about stun SCH. I haven't experienced any of the new fractures so I wouldn't know about them, but it would be an understatement to say they aren't very popular in general. I know quite a few old players who still don't have some of the original Delve wins (especially bee or shark), so the problem with stunning mega bosses is still very relevant for many players. And if you're saying that SCHs can stun Lahar/etc. 100% without cheating (i.e. using 3rd pt programs), well....sorry, but pics or it didn't happen.
    (2)

  5. #25
    Player detlef's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,640
    Character
    Philemon
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Most people just watch for the TP charge animation and stun. It's not hard. Have you ever tried it?
    (2)

  6. #26
    Player camaroz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    64
    Character
    Nitenichi
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by AppropriateName5786 View Post
    I was referring to the first 3 Delve zones when talking about stun SCH. I haven't experienced any of the new fractures so I wouldn't know about them, but it would be an understatement to say they aren't very popular in general. I know quite a few old players who still don't have some of the original Delve wins (especially bee or shark), so the problem with stunning mega bosses is still very relevant for many players. And if you're saying that SCHs can stun Lahar/etc. 100% without cheating (i.e. using 3rd pt programs), well....sorry, but pics or it didn't happen.
    Incinerating Lahar is easily stunnable and the fact that Tojil actually readies it instead of just using it is well icing cause you have more than enough time to get prepared.
    (1)

  7. #27
    Player
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,098
    While yes it's possible and easy to stun these moves due to animations that stick out, please, don't let this topic run off it's rails.

    App was right for sure about the fact that they messed up scaling like with many other things before, where they once again did a simple blanket update and expected a simple little adjustment to HP to be enough to make everything alright whereas that wouldn't be close to enough. They didn't change DEF, EVA, or anything about it's attacks, and while I won't say it matters as much as it once did it still hurts low man groups considerably when you compare it to the BRD Swapping and CORs we used to take. 6-man runs change only the HP, that fact alone means that low-manning relies on much more skilled or more well geared players who can make up for the lack of extra buffs from party members, that's what's excluding people in the end. Had proper scaling been done we wouldn't need to sit here talking about it possibly because the issue may not be nearly as bad, but the fact they thought HP was the only factor standing in our way even while we used GEOs for EVA & DEF Down as well as MEVA and MAcc, let alone 2 SCHs to stun and 2 BRD/COR swapping parties before the fight, is what made it all the worse.
    (4)

  8. #28
    Player Afania's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,445
    Character
    Afania
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Siviard View Post
    My point EXACTLY!

    As I've been saying, DESIGN FLAW that in turn leads to Community issue which leads to people being excluded from said content because they don't have the right jobs or the proper gear on the right jobs.

    In essence.....FFXI has become BlueGartr

    This is not a "design flaw", this is just how our society works. Everyone play/work with like minded people.

    I also never understand the logic behind "solo is da best" in a MMORPG. That's precisely the main reason why none of the current gen MMORPG doesn't last for longer than 3 months.
    (0)

  9. #29
    Player
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,098
    Quote Originally Posted by Afania View Post
    This is not a "design flaw", this is just how our society works. Everyone play/work with like minded people.

    I also never understand the logic behind "solo is da best" in a MMORPG. That's precisely the main reason why none of the current gen MMORPG doesn't last for longer than 3 months.
    In this case it's not about solo, it's about low-manning, the reason you need low-manning in this case is the content was demanding on jobs to the point many people got excluded from it, be they friends or not. Finding a group of like minded people who fit the 17 other slots you need them to in order to do content then at the same time doing said content successfully isn't easy. The reason it's partly a design flaw is due to the fact that the design is in such a way that it creates an issue within the community. If the content didn't require stunning for instance, we wouldn't demand Stun SCHs, without the demand for Stun SCHs there's more room for more jobs, and thus the requirements are more lax and people can join more easily. By designing it in such a way that NMs have moves like Lahar that are certain death for the party it only makes it so that Stun SCH is a near requirement, and as such players without it have a much harder time getting in, since Stun SCH isn't a super common thing it becomes a fairly niche spot to fill.
    (3)

  10. #30
    Player Afania's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,445
    Character
    Afania
    World
    Bahamut
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Demonjustin View Post
    This is really why 6-man Delve was a terrible idea, and even though I supported the idea at the time I now look back on it as the terrible idea it was. It only allowed people to reject even more players from the content and since the update I've been basically excluded from these runs personally because now no one even needs my job. Before people took not only more people but more jobs, it was common on Phoenix to take a mix of DRK, WAR, SAM, MNK, DRG, WHM, BRD, COR, SCH, GEO, and RDM. I was always the RDM in this setup and proud to do so because I finally had a use for my main again without having to bug others for an invite. However even with that being said we've moved to the point where parties go with MNK, DRK, DRG, BRD, WHM, and SCH only, and really the DRK & DRG are fairly rare. I've not seen 1 normal shout for an 18 man run at the new zones since release. I've been in 4 Tojil parties in 2 and a half months. The change was disastrous and it's all due to the very thing you're talking about.
    Pretty much this, I never had issue joining delve pt when it was 18 men, or less than 18 men and still took a few more leeches/friends for clear, now I have to try really hard to convince people to give me a spot because I don't have MNK SAM BRD WHM SCH RNG lol, and I had to reject people if they want to come. Nobody want to do 18 men anymore.

    I never understand why everyone seems to hate 18 men content so much. IMO it isn't bad, there are more chance to meet more players, and build a stronger connections in the community.

    The only reason why delve 1 18 men pt used to /shout forever, is because:

    1. Pt can't find a BRD, GEO and SCH, and you just need them.

    2. The shouter is notorious on the server.

    No.1 is obviously job balance issue, not a 18 men alliance issue. No.2 is /shouter's own issue.

    Delve should really reward 18 men alliance more. 6 men delve doesn't make everyone's life easier, but harder, unless you're MNK SAM BRD WHM SCH RNG.
    (6)

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