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  1. #11
    Player Rwolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    371
    Character
    Rwolf
    World
    Bismarck
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    I agree, it's not a community issue. It's a game balance issue. The community is not perfect and never will be. There will always be someone who will want more than is required. However, when they design content with devastating area of effect abilities and a broken enmity system. Players are naturally going to gravitate to the strategies used as of late.

    Even if Paladin could hold hate against close range melee jobs with no assistance, melee jobs get plastered with area of effect damage. Which is why Relic weapon Rangers are so attractive right now. They get around the broken enmity system, they have high survivability and most of all high damage. It's the same reasons Monk is so popular, high survivability and damage output. A lot of "damage dealers" don't have the accuracy, defense, or buffs (especially for pet jobs) to justify their slot, you'll easily time out with a lot of jobs unless they were perfectly geared. Which defeats the purpose because most of it comes from the fights, some jobs are trying to get invited to.

    Matsui needs to relinquish this vision that it's community responsibility to assist damage dealer jobs that are both not as durable or powerful, and support jobs that can't get close to White Mage or Bard. Why should any job be a help case? Shouldn't they all be equally helpful even if it's a different combination of jobs? It's one thing to help a friend, linkshell member or even a stranger get something that helps them be a better player. But it's entirely another to say the community is to blame that certain jobs are excluded from content. When the simple fact is certain jobs are just designed to best new content.

    I honestly think they can't figure out how to make balanced challenging content without making it grossly overpowered. I don't claim to have all the answers but a few things would help:

    Enfeebling effects need to matter more. (Example: Things like Blind should lower accuracy by a percentage. Attack Down should be more prevalent like defense down)
    Look into expanding instanced areas and increasing/removing timers. (Timers are obviously put on content to throttle congestion. However if everything is a time race, there is no room for defensive groups. Just pure offense)
    Give some alternative types of goals to high level content. (With expanding instances being unlikely: High level content with unconventional goals would expand job desirability. Meeble Burrows, Moblin Maze Mongers, and Assault are great examples of alternative goals)
    Unpopular jobs need a boost. (Figure out what direction you really want Red Mage to accel at and finally do it, make pets more attractive to compete in high level content, Dancer needs a better way to spam status removal to be any semblance of a healer)
    Magic Accuracy - There are so many awesome abilities and spells that could compete with other jobs if their magic accuracy didn't suck (Blue Mage, Dancer, etc)

    It's not a compendium of the issues in the game, but just some suggestions on opening the currently severely limited way content difficulty is produced.
    (15)

  2. #12
    Player Mefuki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    224
    Character
    Mefuki
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Crosspost from BGForums:

    Low NA or EU population wouldn't be as big a problem if SE correctly implemented a sliding scale, from solo all the way up to 18-man, where monster statistics, reward quantity and drop rate/points earned(if it's a point/gear exchange system) scaled with how many you choose to bring. This way, you can log in and start playing any part of the game you want, shout for as much or as little as you want, while still giving incentives to partying up.

    Either that or maybe make it so you can acquire the same gear from different sources. So, I don't know, maybe we could have the ability to buy fragments of Delve/other content weapons and armor as a Monipulator with PvP wins + Infamy? This would be important to give incentive to not only collect Infamy but also to stick around and fight battles to the end. And then, in order to fuse the parts into something usable, we'd have to challenge a version of the NM that drops that particular piece of gear that is scaled for MON Vs. MON combat? Or maybe introduce RoE AMAN vouchers for different gearsets and weapons that can be obtained from killing monster types/NM's that relate to that gear?
    (5)

  3. #13
    Player Siviard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    336
    Character
    Siviard
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Raydeus View Post
    It's good to see they have these issues in mind. And hopefully Fellows will be included in future plans to allow Trust in battlefields for solo players and small parties.

    -----



    That's a community issue, not a gameplay/design one. And he already understands the attitude players take and how they try to minimize risks as much as possible, he said it right there in his post.

    In the older days when more people were playing and the community was much stronger it was not rare at all to have higher level players helping the LS. But nowadays with how sparse the community has become not many have the will or patience to help others. That is precisely why he also says he needs the help of players to make a better community with a better attitude, because mechanics alone are not enough at all.
    I'm going to have to disagree with your assertion that the problem is a community issue and not a gameplay/design issue.

    Here's why.

    I do believe that the Development Team did well in lowering the total HP of Delve NMs in the fracture based on the number of people in the group was wonderful and it really did help out a bit. However, they did absolutely nothing to the NMs themselves, especially the Mega Bosses. The Mega Bosses still SPAM TP moves and those moves still have the power to destroy a full 18-person alliance. IMHO, that is a serious design flaw. Serious enough to the point that in order to defeat those Mega Bosses, only a select few jobs with very top-of-the-line gear (and 3rd party programs) have a shot at winning. Anything else involving a combination of different jobs? Complete and utter failure 100% of the time. Again, that is a very serious design flaw. NOT a Community problem.

    Lets also not forget the very serious problem that is plaguing the 3 pet jobs (BST, SMN, PUP) despite the fact the pet job community has been asking, begging, and pleading for fixes, for ANYTHING that will help their job become wanted in any endgame content, have all fallen on deaf ears. Again, that is a design flaw, which then leads to the community issue.
    (11)
    Last edited by Siviard; 04-16-2014 at 04:31 PM.

  4. #14
    Player detlef's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,640
    Character
    Philemon
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Siviard View Post
    I do believe that the Development Team did well in lowering the total HP of Delve NMs in the fracture based on the number of people in the group was wonderful and it really did help out a bit.
    Isn't this essentially the opposite of what Matsui said? How can you encourage veterans to invite noobies while simultaneously introducing content that discourages you from inviting noobies? Why do something with 18 people when 6 can accomplish the same thing and receive exactly the same drops as the alliance? Would you bring another person along for the win when it means the NMs will have thousands more HP and you have to split the drops with an additional person? You might think twice, right?

    Why bring a full PT to Ra'kazner Skirmish when only one person can get the Transmelange key item? Seriously, why did they make it so terrible? Bringing another person lowers your chance of getting it and the chances were low to begin with. Why team up to earn capacity points when the penalty for PTing up is so steep? It makes more sense to XP solo with trusts that to PT up. It makes more sense to do Dynamis or Salvage solo rather than group up. The only content I can think of that encourages you to bring more players might be Divine Might where more players lets you tackle higher difficulty levels and everybody gets more Rem's Tales. Oh and Meebles too I guess, for what that's worth.

    Basically the game gives you no incentive to PT up. Back in the day, the only downside to bringing a larger group was splitting the drops amongst more people. Now we have events where you have to split drops amongst more people and the content is harder.
    (7)

  5. #15
    Player
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,098
    Quote Originally Posted by detlef View Post
    Isn't this essentially the opposite of what Matsui said? How can you encourage veterans to invite noobies while simultaneously introducing content that discourages you from inviting noobies? Why do something with 18 people when 6 can accomplish the same thing and receive exactly the same drops as the alliance? Would you bring another person along for the win when it means the NMs will have thousands more HP and you have to split the drops with an additional person? You might think twice, right?
    This is really why 6-man Delve was a terrible idea, and even though I supported the idea at the time I now look back on it as the terrible idea it was. It only allowed people to reject even more players from the content and since the update I've been basically excluded from these runs personally because now no one even needs my job. Before people took not only more people but more jobs, it was common on Phoenix to take a mix of DRK, WAR, SAM, MNK, DRG, WHM, BRD, COR, SCH, GEO, and RDM. I was always the RDM in this setup and proud to do so because I finally had a use for my main again without having to bug others for an invite. However even with that being said we've moved to the point where parties go with MNK, DRK, DRG, BRD, WHM, and SCH only, and really the DRK & DRG are fairly rare. I've not seen 1 normal shout for an 18 man run at the new zones since release. I've been in 4 Tojil parties in 2 and a half months. The change was disastrous and it's all due to the very thing you're talking about.
    (9)

  6. #16
    Player Rubeus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Bastok - Fairy/Sylph/Bismarck
    Posts
    146
    Character
    Carcer
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    I literally had to go through the tedious process of logging in to the forums JUST to like your post... and it was worth it.
    (0)

  7. #17
    Player Draylo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    778
    Quote Originally Posted by Demonjustin View Post
    This is really why 6-man Delve was a terrible idea, and even though I supported the idea at the time I now look back on it as the terrible idea it was. It only allowed people to reject even more players from the content and since the update I've been basically excluded from these runs personally because now no one even needs my job. Before people took not only more people but more jobs, it was common on Phoenix to take a mix of DRK, WAR, SAM, MNK, DRG, WHM, BRD, COR, SCH, GEO, and RDM. I was always the RDM in this setup and proud to do so because I finally had a use for my main again without having to bug others for an invite. However even with that being said we've moved to the point where parties go with MNK, DRK, DRG, BRD, WHM, and SCH only, and really the DRK & DRG are fairly rare. I've not seen 1 normal shout for an 18 man run at the new zones since release. I've been in 4 Tojil parties in 2 and a half months. The change was disastrous and it's all due to the very thing you're talking about.
    Exactly what I warned about, but people don't know what they want.
    (0)

  8. #18
    Player Vivivivi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    554
    Character
    Bananavivi
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BLM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Camate View Post
    Hello,

    ....We’ve also been receiving a lot of feedback about the high costs associated with entering content, and we will be looking into reducing entry costs gradually for content after a certain amount of time passes from implementation.
    This is great news, I would like to mention one important consideration when making these adjustments.

    In Final Fantasy XIV, there is very little cost associated with entering battlefields. One one hand I absolutely love it. On the other hand, because there is little cost there is very little risk and as a result players frequently drop in the middle of a dungeon. The impact isn't so great because the duty finder system there allows for a replacement without having to restart the content.

    In FFXI I would like the dev team to consider the fact that there is no Duty Finder, and the cost of entering content has some value in preventing other players from dropping in the middle of content because there is something at stake (whether it's merit points, skirmish segments, pop items, etc).

    If the adjustments being considered are simply lowering merit points from 20 to 15 or 15 to 10, making skirmish segments more accessible, or slightly increasing the drop rate of trigger items, I'm all for that. But please please please do not create a situation where players joining pickup groups are likely to drop five minutes into content without a system like the duty finder in place to replace them. Whether or not it's intentional by design, FFXI (in general) has a nice balance of risk versus reward for challenging difficult content that I actually do miss when I play XIV and appreciate quite a bit when playing FFXI.
    (3)

  9. #19
    Player dragmagi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    88
    Character
    Dragmagi
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    It also help if you got 1 fight per ki on high tier mission fights instead of needing whole pt to each have that ki, is like the orb battlefields.
    (4)

  10. #20
    Player Siviard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    336
    Character
    Siviard
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by detlef View Post
    How can you encourage veterans to invite noobies while simultaneously introducing content that discourages you from inviting noobies?
    My point EXACTLY!

    As I've been saying, DESIGN FLAW that in turn leads to Community issue which leads to people being excluded from said content because they don't have the right jobs or the proper gear on the right jobs.

    In essence.....FFXI has become BlueGartr
    (6)

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