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  1. #1
    Player Sabishii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    19
    Character
    Sabishii
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99

    Adjust content so other DDs are relevant

    I've played FFXI for like 10 years. But I don't have every job leveled to 99, and I don't have many geared jobs (ilvl jobs). I like my BLU at 99, I like my SAM at 99. I got PLD at 99, WAR, DRK, RUN leveled, but those aren't skilled or up to par in terms of gear. I have little reason to work on those jobs, and little reason to use the two geared jobs I have now in current content. Why?

    All jobs are worthless for DDs except RNG and MNK.

    MNK gets formless strikes making them the best magical DDs in the whole game, over Black mage, the main nuking job. They're also the best physical damage dealer, having massive damage over time, and spike damage. They're the only DD people want for the three old delve areas.

    RNG can WS all they want, and stay out of insta-death range. Sure, they can draw hate, but they have tools to avoid getting aggro so they don't get killed by the deadly attacks of ark angels and new delve mobs. If you've got a relic bow/gun, you can do all the damage you want with relic WSs, and not worry about hate, because those skills don't pull a lot of hate.

    These two jobs are the ONLY DDs people want for new content. The other jobs don't matter. People bring WHM (the ONLY healer), PLD (sometimes, like AAs require PLDs, not the old delve stuff, never even seen the new delve areas yet), SCH (the only stunner), COR, BRD, RNG, and GEO (for delve only). The ark angels have deadly aoe abilities absorbed by shadows only. All day, I can sit in jeuno and see people shouting for these jobs. Only select few instances can other people partake in adoulin content (skrimish comes in mind), on other jobs.

    I want to play the game.

    I want to experience new content.

    I'm not interested in burning arrows or bullets (aka money) for hours on end on jobs that don't even have auto attack (RNG COR) for their strongest weapons' basic attacks. I'd skill up WAR if it helped me, I'd skill up DRK maybe, if I didn't need to spend millions of gil to obtain an ochain and/or Aegis, I'd even skill up my paladin's shield.

    And RUN has no purpose as a tank, because a paladin can do it more effectively and efficiently. It's not even a true DD either.

    Doesn't ANYONE see this as a problem? Only a handful of the 20+ jobs in this game are seen as "viable" in end game content. Only TWO DD jobs are "viable" by the community. If you play something else, you have to level the jobs you don't want to, or quit. Or pay someone else to get you your gear for you, effectively buying your way to be dragged past content. Part of it is bad game design. Part of it is that the community sucks, and only seeks the easiest, foolproof way to kill something.

    I would like to play this game and 14, but only 14 is giving me an enjoyable time, because I don't have to level jobs I don't like to get into content.

    /rant
    (9)

  2. #2
    Player Tennotsukai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    577
    Character
    Tennotsukai
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    I was just about to make an exact replica of this post. The issue I have is with these shouts that require only 5 specific jobs. I'm also really tired of people denying my best job, blu, for almost all content. The other night someone literally told me, "sorry, but blu is bad." This was for skirmish lol.

    My blu out-parses most other dd's, because I do absolutely everything I can to make that happen. However, it is still difficult for this job and so many others to bring to the table what monk and Ranger have. If you think drg is as hateless as rng you are right, but drg has REALLY bad dps. Let's not forget monk's amazing dps because h2h skill. Monk also has crazy high hp so they can survive easier than others so even when you don't need hateless dmg or magic damage the high hp keeps monk still #1.

    Why is this SE? Why the neglect?

    Also, fix tourbillion/barbed crescent. Still broken.
    (5)

  3. #3
    Player Karbuncle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    4,314
    I find most shout groups accept a good margin of 119DD so long as they're decent... But i do see the problem in some events, mainly Delve... well mostly Delve, and AA's for dummies.

    As far as Delve goes, Its sad they added such difficult fights in such time restrained areas with crazy TP moves that can Doom. Now, I know they say theres ways to combat it (Removing aura for one), but lets be honest, with 18, even 6 people, too much is happening and its too inconsistent to make winning reasonable by following the "Strategies" they want us to, like knocking out the Aura on Tree by using wind damage... which would be reasonable, if not for the very limited time, as well as the relative complication/randomness of removing said Aura. so it does limit players options.

    So more or less, yah I agree... I'd like to be able to play more on my dead jobs.
    (5)

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Sabishii View Post
    If you play something else, you have to level the jobs you don't want to, or quit.
    It has become exceedingly clear that the last option is the most popular among players.

    A lot of people on my server still don't have the Ceizak/Foret Delve clears and these have been out for how long? Now we have Delve II. SE is definitely testing their players' patience. And if you haven't done Ceizak/Foret Delve in a while, a quick look at the NM wiki descriptions will remind you why no one farms those zones for plasm. They are so ridiculously restrictive that if you put 6 very good players into a Delve run with the wrong job setup, they would never be able to beat it. It has nothing to do with skill, and everything to do with content design. You are not alone in your sentiments at all, OP. The devs simply cannot see the forest for the trees.
    (6)

  5. #5
    Player Draylo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    778
    Find a good group of people and you can come what you want. I play my BLU to everything in this game and have beaten all the content successfully on it.
    (0)

  6. #6
    Player Karbuncle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    4,314
    I wish those said groups existed in more then the Unicorn land of dreams for most people. Good players are hard to find, and good players with open minds are even harder.

    While what you're saying is inherently true its like saying "Yah bruh, find 1 million dollars so you're not poor anymore, simple". While someone might go outside and trip over a dying millionaire in time to be added to his will, most won't.
    (7)

  7. #7
    Player Draylo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    778
    I fail to see how that is SE's problem then. It isn't a problem with game design but a problem with player mindsets. Only thing I can think of is proc system like VW, but apparently everyone hated that even though it included a lot of jobs. OP doesn't even give suggestions on how they can "force" people to bring his jobs he likes to play (which of course he is a DD meat head.)
    (1)

  8. #8
    Player Kimjongil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    63
    Character
    Presidentobama
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    DRK Lv 99
    So most likely you were carried or the weakest link. Weakest DD, weakest heal, weakest support or most inefficient person in the party that ithers must make up your slack. And that is cool when helping a LS mate or friend out.

    SE has nerfed some jobs while overpowering others.

    They change elemental magic dmg T1-5 as well as nerf twilight scythe, knowing full well they were going to release weapons to outclass the scythe anyway. But at the same time make a melee job MNK the best magic dmg job in game as well as pretty much the best melee job DPS in game. They don't even balance the weapon dmg output of similar jobs. War, Drk, Sam Mnk. Mnk will pull ahead.

    Mnks are tired of being only melees in party they want others.

    SE nerfs there own content when you get three rngs a pld and a heal and support and just shoot a NM or bunch of NMS and the NM doesn't even notice. AA/DM. I have healed on these and the fights put me to sleep. I just do a few things on pld to cure. The rngs never take hate and the NM dies. Same thing for DM. Bring regular melees and the fight would actually require healing and teamwork.

    In delve 2.0 rngs just shoot the NMS and again it dies. Good content is when at least 50% of the jobs can do it.
    As it stands 50% of the jobs can not do delve 1.0 or 2.0. They really can't do AA's and what do they have to look forward to on the high end battles SE is making. More mnk/rngs.

    Why couldn't SE make a delve zone with all magic type jobs. They have six zones. They could of put many magic type jobs together where blus and other mages would been welcome.

    They could of made an undead zone in delve. This again would of had different job setups optional vs all the same.

    Even if you lvl brd, mnk. rng and you use those jobs to gear say blu or war. Guess what no one will want your top geared war or drk for a delve Mar reive run. ever... So whats the point of gearing it if most events lock out the job.

    I couldn't take drk into salvage. I couldn't take drk to delve 1.0 or 2.0 mostly. Few exceptions of ls pick up runs. But they never win anyway do for fun.

    If hand to hand skill gets +242 at 119. Where s our blue sword +242 blue magic.

    Rngs are bored, mnks are bored, players are bored of mnk rng burns only.

    heck people are bored with trust. I did three WKR's over this last week. and people actually were making alliance inside vs having trust out.
    (4)

  9. #9
    Player Tennotsukai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    577
    Character
    Tennotsukai
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Draylo View Post
    Find a good group of people and you can come what you want. I play my BLU to everything in this game and have beaten all the content successfully on it.
    Shiva is lame. Only thing I can do is lead. Other than that, no one will invite a blu to any of the newer content. Which, personally, I find weird. Blu has everything except enmity- . Maybe some Shiva blu's are giving us a bad rep.

    I still believe many dd's suffer compared to Ranger and Monk. Ranger being hateless and invisible, and monk as having massive hp to share and omg dps from h2h. At least, no Rangers are coming to Yorcia delve... I think.
    (0)

  10. #10
    Player Karbuncle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    4,314
    Quote Originally Posted by Draylo View Post
    I fail to see how that is SE's problem then. It isn't a problem with game design but a problem with player mindsets. Only thing I can think of is proc system like VW, but apparently everyone hated that even though it included a lot of jobs. OP doesn't even give suggestions on how they can "force" people to bring his jobs he likes to play (which of course he is a DD meat head.)
    I'd go as far to say that It is, in fact, the responsibility of the designer to account for the fact 99% of the player base will be timid, closed minded, and rely on safety nets in jobs like MNK HP, or RNG survivability/enmity control.

    Good game design at least attempts to take into account that most people are closed minded, slow to change, and quick to ignore what is not considered the perfect norm. Now i'll admit any sane human being will say its impossible to balance 20 jobs perfectly without gutting their uniqueness (cough*ffxiv*).

    Still, In the end, Its far easier for a game designer to make a job useful than it is for an individual to change the minds of thousands of thousands of closed minded people. People don't like change, being different, settling for less than what a spreadsheet says is perfect... and frankly some of these things aren't even wrong, its their choice, and thats fair, but thats where the problem stems from. The overwhelming majority are not like your friends, and that singes people out.

    The fact I cannot even get through to you on the base concept of my argument that finding competent open minded players is near impossible, and that in the light of this information SE should accommodate for the lack of these players by making more jobs viable is more than enough proof that attempting to change the opinions of the entire FFXI base is impossible, as I cannot even get you to understand it, and you aren't even effected by the problem.

    Still, I'd be remiss if i didn't point out, no matter how accessible SE makes the content, its likely people will stop opt for optimal set ups. People are comfortable with whats easy, with the norm, with what other people say is the best. So you could design content that takes 2x damage from Beast pets, but MNK will probably still be the only DD invited.

    I will admit, the more i think on the issue, the more i realize its an unsolvable conundrum. you are right that its the playerbase thats the problem. You are correct there sir, however, changing the player base is an impossible task, our argument thus far is more than proof. So in the long run, frankly, this problem is impossible to solve thanks to human nature. So while your suggestion is as obtainable as the bottled dreams of a Unicorn, it might be the only solution.

    Still, there are some short term solutions to this, not all the fault lies with us... how SE designs some fights can be in itself the problem. the obvious lead MNK has over other jobs is not the fault of the players. Removing the requirement for RNGs is not hard either, stop making stupid TP moves that either insta-gib your ass or Doom+1k dmg/Slow/paralyze/fulldispel/100hp/tic poison all in one!
    (5)
    Last edited by Karbuncle; 04-04-2014 at 09:51 AM.

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