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Thread: R.E.M.

  1. #1
    Player Mikkel's Avatar
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    Mar 2014
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    Character
    Mikkel
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 99

    R.E.M.

    We were asked to go out and test our weapons at 119 before creating a fuss over their upgraded versions... So, this post will mostly be about Twashtar's performance at 119.

    It took me about 2 months to get it from 99->119. I wasnt in a rush after seeing its low base dmg, but i figured even though it didnt seem very appealing anymore i spent way too much time and gil making it to not finish.

    Conclusion- I'm extremely disappointed in its performance. I didnt expect it to blow away our new dagger options, but I did expect it to be competitive... Its really not.

    If Rudra's storm is not forced to crit its extremely weak to begin with, so its not something i can spam for aftermath. Seeing how i use it mainly on DNC, im forced to save 300% tp for climatic flourish every 90 secs to maintain aftermath. I say 'forced' because I absolutely must keep AM3 up 100% of the time for Twash to be worth equiping at all. As a weapon used on Dual Weilding jobs its 50% ODD is really only a 25%~ ODD bc it doesnt proc on sub hand. Which then makes Twash's avg Dmg with AM3 up 100% of time jump from 89 to that of a 111~dmg dagger... BUT only for melee swings. So why put in the extra work into making and using Twash over using a Vanir Knife (base dmg 111) or Iziikoh (base dmg 108)? The aftermath is not even making up for the lost DPS from needing to save 300%tp and then having to WS with such a low base dmg.

    So my question for the Dev team is... What is Twashtar's advantage? and since i'm sure this issue extends to other REM weapons I'd like to know if there are any plans to make small tweaks to their performance in the future?

    I feel like there wasnt much consideration for the Jobs that use each weapon for front line jobs in relation to how they'd perform.

    If adjusting the base dmg is out of the question, would it be possible to make the aftermath function from the sub hand? Or add a WS dmg bonus on Empy's for their weapon skills? they took the biggest base dmg hit out of the REMs, and Empy WSs can now be used on any weapon... it would be nice.

    P.S. thank you for all the hard work thats been put into the game since adoulin, I've enjoyed most of the adjustments made... especially pertaining to 'Quality of life'.

    EDIT: I had convinced myself Empyreans get a WS bonus to their respective WSs to make myself feel better about continuing to use my Twashtar, i was wrong. Maybe I should have just kept it on my Mannequin.
    (2)
    Last edited by Mikkel; 03-21-2014 at 12:46 PM.

  2. #2
    Player Martel's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    249
    Character
    Martel
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikkel View Post
    Its base dmg is so low i do comparable DMG with Rudra's Storm using Iziikoh or Vanir knife despite Twashtar's +30% dmg boost and I sacrifice WS dmg on anything thats not Rudra's on top of it.
    Mythics get +30% WS dmg to their WS, Relic get +40%. Empyreans don't have any.

    So you can use whatever ws you want on Twashtar, without losing anything.
    (3)

  3. #3
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    RMEs have lower Base DMG which means lower WS DMG, but they are much better for TP DMG due to the ODD & such which pushes them above other options in many cases from what I know. I don't know exactly what you're comparing nor if it fits in this case but if you're looking at only WS DMG than you're judging the weapon to be worse on the worst aspect of the weapon by compare to the other non-RME weapons.
    (1)

  4. #4
    Player Mikkel's Avatar
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    Character
    Mikkel
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    Quetzalcoatl
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    SMN Lv 99
    That was the point i was trying to make... the base dmg is so low that its ODD doesnt make up for its base dmg. I'm sorry if i'm not expressing that clearly. Part of the issue is its super low delay, which is why i can understand what SE was thinking when they chose its base dmg. The low delay (which used to be one of its attractive features) is now just a problem for Twashtar because SE chose a DPS value they wanted all the Empy's to hover around (to keep things even and easy on their end) that was calculated off the delay of the weapons. The dmg penalty on Twashtar is just too harsh.

    I consider the low delay on Twash as one of its features... like the enhanced Martial Arts on Kenkonken. Can you imagine what Kenkonken would look like if they decided its dmg after including the -50 delay reduction from enhanced martial arts V?

    To help illustrate a big part of the issue imagine-
    If you had a 1 dmg weapon that could ODD and a 2 dmg weapon that couldnt... which would you equip?
    Then if you had a 500 base dmg weapon that could ODD and a 501 that couldnt... which would equip?
    From this example you see that ODD becomes more powerful with higher base dmg. (obviously)
    So Twashtar having the lowest delay and therefore the lowest base dmg its impacted more greatly by the way they adjusted DPS. Iziikoh has almost 22% higher base dmg than Twashtar... how is it supposed to compete as a main hand weapon?
    (1)
    Last edited by Mikkel; 03-22-2014 at 03:30 AM.

  5. #5
    Player FaeQueenCory's Avatar
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    Jun 2013
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    500
    Character
    Eliosha
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Martel View Post
    Mythics get +30% WS dmg to their WS, Relic get +40%. Empyreans don't have any.

    So you can use whatever ws you want on Twashtar, without losing anything.
    Huh. I would have sworn they had a +30% WSdmg too....
    But I just double checked it... and they don't!
    How weird.
    (0)

  6. #6
    Player Mirage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikkel View Post
    That was the point i was trying to make... the base dmg is so low that its ODD doesnt make up for its base dmg. I'm sorry if i'm not expressing that clearly. Part of the issue is its super low delay, which is why i can understand what SE was thinking when they chose its base dmg. The low delay (which used to be one of its attractive features) is now just a problem for Twashtar because SE chose a DPS value they wanted all the Empy's to hover around (to keep things even and easy on their end) that was calculated off the delay of the weapons. The dmg penalty on Twashtar is just too harsh.

    I consider the low delay on Twash as one of its features... like the enhanced Martial Arts on Kenkonken. Can you imagine what Kenkonken would look like if they decided its dmg after including the -50 delay reduction from enhanced martial arts V?

    To help illustrate a big part of the issue imagine-
    If you had a 1 dmg weapon that could ODD and a 2 dmg weapon that couldnt... which would you equip?
    Then if you had a 500 base dmg weapon that could ODD and a 501 that couldnt... which would equip?
    From this example you see that ODD becomes more powerful with higher base dmg. (obviously)
    So Twashtar having the lowest delay and therefore the lowest base dmg its impacted more greatly by the way they adjusted DPS. Iziikoh has almost 22% higher base dmg than Twashtar... how is it supposed to compete as a main hand weapon?
    Seeing as you forgot a very important statistic, I'll fill it in for you and answer.

    I would take the 1 dmg 1 delay weapon that could ODD over the 2 dmg 999 delay weapon that can't ODD.

    I think you're wrong, because even if the base dmg is pretty low on twasthar, the delay is so low that it hits a lot more often, which means a lot more ODD procs per time unit.

    10 hits for 50 damage with two ODD procs for 100 is the same DPS as 5 hits for 100 damage with one ODD proc for 200. Of course, this is when looking at the weapons in a vakuum. IIRC, different weapons get different DMG boost caps from str, but this isn't an issue that is directly related to the dmg:delay thing.

    What really is an issue though, is how annoying it is to keep up aftermath when your AM WS requires stacking to be good. In a party situation, it is easier for thf than dnc, but solo, it is easier for dnc than thf.
    (1)
    Last edited by Mirage; 03-22-2014 at 05:30 AM.

  7. #7
    Player Mikkel's Avatar
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    Character
    Mikkel
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    Quetzalcoatl
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    SMN Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirage View Post
    Seeing as you forgot a very important statistic, I'll fill it in for you and answer.

    I would take the 1 dmg 1 delay weapon that could ODD over the 2 dmg 999 delay weapon that can't ODD.
    Edit: I really dont want to argue. I'm just trying to bring some attention to how weak Twashtar is when compared with easily obtained 119 options... most of the time its not worth main handing. This isnt a 'omg my bravura isnt doing as much dmg as a Rag, wtf!?' or a 'i cant believe SE is going to introduce a new instru that adds an extra song after i spent a whole week making my lvl 90 harp' thread... i spent the better part of a year making this weapon. I 99'd it two weeks b4 adoulin came out... and now at 119 its performance is rather pathetic. As one of like 3 119 twash owners (exaggeration) i felt like i needed to say something.
    It no longer has an exclusive ws
    it doesnt get any bonus dmg to what used to be its exclusive ws
    it has really low base dmg
    and the WS that triggers its aftermath is only worth using when forced to crit
    Its really hard to justify equiping in my main hand for most content...
    (4)
    Last edited by Mikkel; 03-22-2014 at 07:22 AM.

  8. #8
    Player Olor's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    these are all fair points. While I'm not into the idea of REM wiping the floor with everything - I do think that enhanced effort should generally yield enhanced rewards. It should at least be very near the best, if not have a slight edge (ha ha) over other daggers.
    (1)
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  9. #9
    Player Mikkel's Avatar
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    Mar 2014
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    Character
    Mikkel
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 99
    I parse regularly using twash + Izii. Main handing Iziikoh ALWAYS pulls ahead of main handing Twash. A recent example-
    I did a SKC20 on difficult with my LS. I main handed Twash and sub Izii for the fist three, then switched hands for the last three.
    First three-
    THF- 33%
    MNK- 27%
    DNC/SAM (me)- 22%
    Last 3-
    THF- 31%
    MNK 25%
    Me- 27%
    (the remainder of both is the PLD soloing the RNG trying to get it to use EES)
    Same buffs, same gear etc... only difference is me switching the hands i have my daggers in. I also entered each fight with close to 300% TP bc the THF was DBing a BRD so we would wait for Night/Troub to be rdy b4 entering, which should have given Twashtar a significant advantage being able to put up AM3 ASAP...
    Same thing happens when i'm soloing. Main handing Iziikoh always nets me a higher exp/hr...
    The ODD does not make up for Twashtar's excessively low base dmg... Its intended to be a Main hand weapon, but it cant perform as one. Which is why i've started calling it Crutch-tar. Main handing it means I need to put in the additional effort to maintain AM, but i'm not gaining anything by it.
    SE should just replace the ODD on it with a costum effect- Maat. Turning me into an old man would at least be funny.
    (1)

  10. #10
    Player Kimjongil's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
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    63
    Character
    Presidentobama
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    DRK Lv 99
    I agree with you people. While I don't have the empy knife, I do have the 119 empy staff. It has no purpose. One can equip the AA taru staff, after unlocking a WoE or a 90 empy. Get all the same benefits of a 119. And in the case of the Taru staff, a soothslayers staff, skirmish 2.0 staff, they get INT, MAB, MP.

    IN the empys case they should increased the WS dmg 30-40%, or in the staves case incrased JT occult, or aftermath or refresh, regen, or Magic burst bonus, something. This would also apply to a whm dagen club. Totally useless to 119. I really don't even know why most people make empys now. If a relic can have the weapon skill, most work better with a relic, or mythic.
    (1)

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