Please put more focus on end game class balance

[Peepiopi]

This is one of the biggest concerns that a lot of us have about Final Fantasy XI right now.

First let me say, I feel like the recent changes over the last few months as far as enmity, and minor job adjustments have been steps in the right direction, but they are far too minor. There are still only a handful of jobs that get invitations to top tier encounters. It would be fantastic if there were class adjustments that are affective enough that open end game to all jobs.

In other words, I would love to see people shout for any "Tanks, Healers, Support, DD" Rather than specifics like "PLD, MNK, RNG, BRD, COR, WHM" etc..

Just as a couple examples: As long as Aegis and Ochain remain overpowered, then no other tanks will matter. I love playing Rune Fencer, but I'm basically relegated to soloing or lowmans because it's not as good as an Aegis/Ochain PLD. I also really like Puppetmaster, but my damage is murdered because of my pet constantly dying and the delays from slow job ability animations.

Boss evasion is absurdly high, and many DD jobs (especially pets) get annihilated by the damage. So you're only left with DD that can either survive the damage, or stay out of range of it.

It's stuff like this that really need to get fixed. The quality of life updates like the HP warps have been PURE WIN, but the game won't really feel fun unless we can actually be included in endgame while using our favorite jobs. I mean I'd say playing Rune Fencer and Puppetmaster feels like being picked last in gym class, but we're not even getting picked! ><

SIDE NOTE: Another complaint I have is with crafting and how it really creates a rather imposing barrier to end game progression for new players, but that's a topic for a different thread. I just wanted to mention it because I think class balance and old fashioned progress barriers are what are keeping this game from growing.

[Camiie]

They need to quit declaring a job "balanced" as long as it's somewhat effective at something/anything. "This job is good at farming Dynamis! What more to life is there?" If they want to do other stuff they can just level another job!" That seems to be their philosophy. Ideally they would treat each job as if each character could have only one job at 99. That's not to say that every job should be able to fulfill every sort of role, but each job should have something beneficial to offer within its general archetype. It shouldn't be so easy to decide which DD to take for example, or rather it shouldn't really matter. They should all get you to the same result even if they take a different path to get there (aka play differently). The devs and many players don't seem to want to wrap their heads around that concept of many paths, same result.

[Xantavia]

Unfortunately, I think this is a total pipe-dream, partly because of the player base. If the jobs aren't exactly equal, there will be those who want only the best, no matter how small the difference. If one job does 10,000 dmg over the length of the fight, but another job does 9990 dmg, they won't want the weaker job. I mean, that 10 point difference might make the battle last a minute longer. Seems people only care about having the quickest, safest, and easiest path to a win and don't even want to try something different.

[Camiie]

Yeah sadly some in the community take efficiency to the point of absurdity. And just as in a game of Telephone, the info that there is a slight DPS difference between jobs eventually morphs into that slightly weaker job becoming considered totally worthless under all conditions.

[Demonjustin]

Even if a job does more damage than another, at this point it can be completely ignored based on its history, I mean look at BLM, it's a perfect example. BLM was thought of as nothing more than a proc job for all of Abyssea and VW, SoA came along, nothing changed, they did the BLM updates, nothing changed, Yorcia Skirmish came out, and it took I think about 2~4 weeks before BLM actually became accepted, even though it was by far the best job in the game for that event. Till those few weeks in hardly anyone would even think to take BLM, I had a lot of parties turn me down for coming RDM or BLM to nuke mobs, telling me the job sucked and was too weak to bother bringing, and then a few weeks later, it was BLM or gtfo.

This new Skirmish is no different, and it's still in the 'BLM is worthless' phase of things, even though on most NMs it deals the same amount of DMG as any DD, with the only exceptions being Orthrus and Ironclad, and there are some NMs that it flat out crushes DDs on such as the Acuex, Grasshopper, or Behemoth.

The thing is, the English community at very least if not the general community as a whole, are very resistant to change be it good or bad, even if it's in their best interests or not, it's simply how we are. Even if tomorrow they removed JA delay entirely, PUP & DNC both became much more powerful jobs, PUP would be neck & neck with MNK if not beating it provided the PUP has Divinator, and yet, I doubt the general community would accept PUP as anything more than lolPUP for months to come. Balance is an issue, yes, but the community is an issue too, and in my opinion it's almost as bad, if not worse.

[Peepiopi]

All really good points. And you're right, the community has grown waaaay too picky over the years in regards to shouts. It's really a shame too, when you consider that the players online usually fluctuates around 500-1000 players (on odin). You'd think that people would be a little more open to inviting more available jobs rather than bottle-necking endgame through a handful of jobs. I think both players and SE have become too complacent with that, which is why I made this suggestion.

Though, if the jobs were balanced, then that will influence attitude change. The only ones that can convince people that there really are more than one tank or healer job would be SE, but they need to really commit to balancing the jobs and bosses so that each job can viably fill their job's general role (tank,dps,heal,support) and win those fights.

[Feary]

The Game is Balanced to not be Evenly balance, every jobs has a niche and that is the balance.

how we choose to use that is our own right. like the example above, every job in this has had its time to shine in relevant content at some point.

Very rarely does S.E step in and force players hands. one example i can think of is WHM.

Once upon a time, whm wasnt getting the healer role in parties. this is the job niche/purpose/reason its there. so s.e gave it a nice overhaul with JAs like solace for curing, spells like Cure 6 sacrifice and excess to best Cure potecy and casting time.

Pushed RDM to second class healer, not giving them cure 5, however they gave them ALOT of Cure pot. which at the time was unheard of at time.

im sure S.E has a chart with category roles and each job has a priority list. this list is maintained as game Balance. which is why rdm are unique hybrids mages with fastcast and enfeebles, why bst and pup are way better solo jobs, PLD as brick walls, and DD who all differ.

some jobs are easier to excel at then others which translates to player skill and their effort to be above average on their jobs. when players achieve their gear and appropriate game skill level, most jobs are can give each other a run for their money.

however what you asking would literally break the game and the philosophy of the final fantasy franchise.

[Sfchakan]

RUN is a novelty job and will never be considered a tank in it's current state. It is quite obviously not an acceptable tank for anything serious just from looking at it on paper. You made the choice to level and gear it for whatever reason, hoping to use it as a tank to... everything? Anything? There are no encounters currently where it excels at anything more than being a support job in the game. This is not the fault of other jobs being "overpowered," but the using the job simply being kind of silly. It's my perspective that the job needs a complete overhaul in order to be an effective tank or even support tank.

If you want to tank all content, then level various jobs that can tank (PLD, WAR, NIN, MNK) and gear them instead of whining. Aegis take a couple of months work, Ochain can be done by a PUP in short time if you're focused, I'm sure.

But, hey, we can all cry for nerfs, I guess! Surely, that's the best way to balance the game instead of simply making yourself available to fill what the task at hands needs!

I think RUN is overpowered because it has UNPARALLELED access to Runes that other jobs do not. Please make PLD, WAR, NIN and MNK just as good at using Runes and Big, Shiny swords as RUN, Square!

[Camiie]

The Game is Balanced to not be Evenly balance, every jobs has a niche and that is the balance.

Killing Easy Prey or Too Weak mobs slightly more effectively than others is not a valid niche.

how we choose to use that is our own right. like the example above, every job in this has had its time to shine in relevant content at some point.

Even if that were true, that's a piss poor way to define balance. "Oh your job was good 3 years ago, so take a few years off and we'll get back to you eventually."

im sure S.E has a chart with category roles and each job has a priority list. this list is maintained as game Balance. which is why rdm are unique hybrids mages with fastcast and enfeebles, why bst and pup are way better solo jobs, PLD as brick walls, and DD who all differ.

What does any of that have to do with balance? Categorizing jobs is not balance. Making sure they are competitive within their defined archetypes in endgame group content is balance. If a job is categorized as a tank but it can't serve that purpose in any way shape or form in a group setting then the devs have failed at balance.

some jobs are easier to excel at then others which translates to player skill and their effort to be above average on their jobs. when players achieve their gear and appropriate game skill level, most jobs are can give each other a run for their money.

Oh, you're using this tired argument? Complete and total B.S. There are now and always have been jobs that when geared and played as well as possible still fall behind other jobs even when those other jobs are totally half-assed.

however what you asking would literally break the game and the philosophy of the final fantasy franchise.

Then break it. Smash it wide open. I'll take fun and freedom over some short-sighted, limited philosophy. It's not 1987 anymore.

[FaeQueenCory]

I don't think Ochain and Aegis are overpowered.... they are "epic" weapons that do exactly what they were designed to do: mitigate physical and magical damage respectively.
This is perfectly in line with PLD, because PLD is the "classic" tank. A "classic" tank is one who mitigates damage, by taking 0 damage.
It's one of the 3 tank archetypes: classic, meat and blink. (classic = never damaged, meat = constant damage but constant healing, and blink = ... well... blinking the damage away.)

PLD is could also be considered a meat tank... but an ideally geared pld will be taking 0 dmg.
(even a non ideally geared one can do that too)

The problem specifically with RUN is twofold: (mind you this is with respect to RUN being an inverse PLD: major magic classic tanking, good-to-major phys tanking)
1) Greatsword.

Without shields... RUN's way to mitigate damage is purely by -DT gear and parry... for physical damage only anyways.... I think anyone who's actually played RUN can agree that it can tank magic damage ungodly well. (Though only for 1 element at a time... so... meh.)
-PDT caps at -50%, and Parry rate caps at 20%... meaning 80% of attacks on average will be unparried...
And RUN has no way to bypass this cap, as PLD does: Ochain's shield blocking and Burtang
However, this is very easy to be rectified.
And the key is RUN's fake-mythic...
Which not only have to be the equivalent to Burtang in terms of benefit... but also be the equivalent to Aegis and Ochain... at the same time.
Here is the current Burtang:

And here's the current shields:

Let's ignore the iLv stats and just focus on the augments.
RUN's fake mythic will need to have some amount of -PDT that is comparable to the -18% Burtang gives PLDs. I would vote for at least an even -20%... namely because RUN's -DT stats seem to... be 2/3rds the values PLDs get... Yet SE wants these two jobs to be interchangeable and equal? .... smh

• And while having it have a hard -DT that bypasses the cap would be better than just -PDT... It would never happen, but more importantly, RUN doesn't need the -MDT. It REALLY doesn't... NMs that would 1shot pretty much every job... even PLDs with Aegis... RUN laughs at... From my own experience... their super-ultra-mega-death moves... don't even break my SS... (again, single element tanking god = RUN)

• Enmity is nice and all... but Kaquljaan has taught me that MAB is a stat that MAJORLY boosts RUN's tanking ability... I would argue more so than +Enmity would because RUN doesn't maintain hate via cures and holding gained hate like a PLD does... it maintains hate from the constant additional hate massive damages from GSs give. So instead of a +enmity term, I would rather see a +MAB term... it doesn't even have to be very big either. Tunglmyrkvi agrees that it wouldn't even have to be greater than a piddly +10 thanks to the base damage a 119 GS would have.

• As stated in the previous bullet, RUN doesn't hold hate, it constantly generates more hate, so a buff like "reduce enmity loss from taking damage" is... just kinda meh on RUN... sure, it's helpful... kinda... but the sheer damage GSs afford RUN make it kinda... unnecessary. +enmity is better for RUN tanking than "reduces enmity loss from taking damage".

• And now we come to the shield's part in this GS. It's actually not the stats from Aegis and Ochain that need to be equivalently realized in RUN's fake mythic... it's their hidden effect: increases block rate, not applied to the 65% block rate cap. While Aegis' hidden buff is less substantial than Ochain's is (iirc) it's still there. And the RUN mythic would need a similar damage mitigating hidden effect on it... however... this effect would have to be MASSIVE compared to the rate increase from even Ochain... and this is because the Parry cap is 20%. Shields can block 65% of your attacks, but you can only parry 20% of your attacks. Either they need to give RUN a JT that lets it increase the parry rate to 65%, just wholesale increase the parry cap (never happen), or have RUN's fake mythic's hidden parry buff (as that is RUN's shield skill) be the equivalent to Ochain's +35% buff: in other words, +80% parry rate, bypasses cap. (IMO, the best route would be JT boost to 65% and then +35% like Ochain on the fake mythic)

• I know I said the stats on the shields aren't relevant/needed... but I kinda lied... sorta. "convert damage to MP"... SO GOOD for PLD... and SO GOOD for RUN too. It would not be bad if the fake mythic came with that ability in lieu of "reduces enmity loss from taking damage"... in fact, RUN kinda loves that effect far more than PLD ever will... which brings us to:

2) Refresh

Now I know what most people are thinking "RUN already has refresh?" and it does indeed....
But anyone who's ever used any body piece that isn't RUN's RF1... knows how much RUN hemorrhages MP.
If it weren't for things like Ethereal Earring and Flume Belt... RUN wouldn't be able to function at all.... and even then, those are more a bandaid rather than a real serviceable thing.

RUN needs its auto-refresh.
Just as PLD does.... and speaking of PLD, let's look at the two reasons why PLDs have little to no MP problems while RUN has 0 MP all the time:

1. Auto-Refresh JT: The current state of RUN at 99 is what PLD is before lv35. The MOMENT a PLD hits 35, all their MP issues fly out the window until the reach 75... and even then, it just becomes something that has to be thought about slightly... And once at 75, it ceases to be a problem because:
2. Chivalry: This merit ability alone could make PLD not need refresh gear. Shield Mastery + Ochain + Chivalry = infinite MP. And then you have 1MP/tic happening all the while on top of all that. And you don't even need Ochain for it either, it just makes PLD's MP even LESS of an issue.

It's really shocking how much RUN needs that 2MP/tic from the RF1 body piece... and I feel that it could even get by with 1MP/tic too... the 2MP is just more of a good thing.

And the reason for why RUN eats away it's MP like crazy is because of how it mitigates damage: through the constant reapplication of various enhancing magics.
That 22mp adds up VERY quickly.

And while I see what they did with Vivacious Pulse... It's very clear, at least to me, that it's intended to be the equivalent to PLD's Chivalry...
But... it requires dark runes to restore MP....
And as we all know... RUN tanks a single element of magic... meaning: if you're not fighting a light enemy where dark runes will reduce its light damage to nothing... you no longer have the ability to restore your MP. At least not without loosing your magical damage protection... as well as the demand to change all your runes... not once, but twice...
just to restore a little MP....
As a famous black woman once said:

Ain't nobody got time for that!

So basically.... Vivacious Pulse is much like any RUN JSE that has -PDT... "it's like PLD's ability/gear... just at 2/3 the usefulness/worth/value/goodness."

If they adjust what I have outlined here... Then RUN really can be interchangeable (mostly) with PLD, as is their constant refrain telling us that that's their wish.

Make the fake mythic have abilities in line with what I said here... (what I would do is: -20%PDT, overcap; +10~15MAB; "enhances rune enhancement effect"; hidden:+35~80% overcap parry rate... the rune enchantment effect lets you hold 1 more rune... cause mythics do that sort of thing... and it might ease up on the need to change all three runes to dark to get some mp back.)
And make the empyrean body have both 1-2MP/tic refresh AND at least -8%PDT... Why does PLD's relic body clock out 9% of all damage... but RUN's fake relic body only nulls 6%? These are not equal things... if anything RUN's gear should have MORE -PDT than PLD's on account of PLD's gear all has much higher DEF... plus shields.

EDIT: Oops. Forgot to point out, "bluh bluh bluh I don't want to have to make a mythic to be good bluh bluh bluh"... well if the fake relic set is any indication... RUN's fake mythic is gonna be so easily obtained... it could hardly be called "mythic".