Put me in coach! Fix me first though!

[Damane]

I never understood why paladin, made for tanking, lacked a provoke or an ability just like it. War could tank a bit, but why was this given to them and not the actual tank class, forcing players to pretty much sub war. Ninja was not originally made for tanking, so i can understand it not having a provoke like feature. Run was made for tanking but lacks a provoke as well, granted i have only gotten run to 30 so i dunno how much enmity runes and such give. Also mystified me as to why they were given ninja like gear with no defenses (PDT and such) besides parry.

because war was the get go tank from lvl 1 to lvl 50 before zilart expansion was released, and that makes sense

[Muras]

Rune fencer has been created as a tank that is especially strong against magical attacks, but when it comes to physical damage, the team envisioned that rune fencers would adopt ninja or samurai as their support jobs to evade or parry the attacks that come their way.

I was kinda getting this vibe from day one honestly, and felt much more apparent with the inspiration merits. I don't think going the evasion tank route is a bad idea either, but as you've said, the devs kinda hoped RUN would depend on support jobs to do it's main job, which is never a good idea. After messing around with RUN for a good long while, I have a couple thoughts of my own on the subject.

So after Inspiration was added, I found that Blink and Stoneskin were actually usable mid-battle. I also found they weren't very effective on anything high level. To me, these were meant to be RUN's Utsusemi for evading damage, but they're too weak. For Blink, it gives only two shadows, which are maybe 50% reliable at procing. On the other hand, Utsusemi: Ichi gives 3 shadows and is 100% reliable. And then there's Stoneskin which is still capped at 350 without any special cap breaking equipment. 350 damage isn't even worth a single auto attack from high level mobs at times.

So I think it's pretty obvious that Blink and Stoneskin could be brought up into modern times. Blink is a Lv19 spell (For WHM) that has not changed at all since the time you learn it since enhancing magic skill does nothing (Like most other enhancing spells). Blink should give more shadows, either by changing the spell itself to accomodate for higher enhancing magic (A buff for everyone), or through a trait or equipment for RUN (A buff only for RUN). I'd have Blink give 6 shadows. For enhancing magic I'd do (2 + (Enhancing Magic / 100)), so 6 at skill 400+. For a trait, I'd have RUN gain multiple tiers of it so that by Lv99 they'd have 6 shadows (Maybe two traits, one at Lv50, one at 95 or so? +2 shadows for each). Or, for equipment, just give +4 extra shadows, kinda how NIN's Empyrean feet give extra shadows to Utsusemi. Since we haven't had RUN's Empyrean armor added yet, this might be a good thing to consider adding to it.

Why 6 shadows though? Because again, Blink isn't exactly 100% reliable like Utsusemi, of which a NIN main can get 5 from Utsusemi: Ni with Empy feet. For one extra shadow compared to a NIN tank, which doesn't proc 100%, seems to be a fair thing to me. Also, Blink and Utsusemi can't be up at the same time, so there shouldn't be any worry about RUN/NINs being overpowered from having more blink shadows.

And for Stoneskin... Well, it just needs to give more than 350, which is the amount it was balanced at for Lv75 cap. 700+ seems a bit outragous, perhaps, but maybe 500ish? Again, can have enhancing magic effect it properly by removing the cap, or adding a trait to RUN, or a piece of RUN equipment that adds a decent bonus that's more than +10 to +20 like current pieces.

Inquartata could be a bit more powerful. Either by boosting the parry rate even more, or perhaps having a "partial parry" check when a full parry doesn't occur. Full parry would be -100% damage as it currently is, but a partial parry could be 25-50% damage reduced. So 20% chance for a full parry, then 50% for a partial parry to occur, so overall you'd have a 70% chance of some kind of damage reduction occuring.

Or, let Battuta last longer so I can have it up more than 30% of the time while I'm tanking 100% of the time, heh.

I just want to make it clear to the devs I really don't want to see changes occur to other jobs so they make better SJs as a fix to RUN. Buffing SAM or NIN to fix RUN just seems like taking the long road, and just wrong overall. RUN should be able to do it's thing entirely on it's own (As any job), with SJs being there strictly for support. RUN should have the choice of a variety of SJs depending on the goal they hope to achieve and not locked into a specific setup for all eternity with /sam or /nin for any serious content.

Oh, on a small note... If you remove enmity entirely from runes, does this mean they'll be on 1 second timers or less (This would be awesome)? Since you halved the enmity along with the recast in the previous update and all...

[Damane]

I was kinda getting this vibe from day one honestly, and felt much more apparent with the inspiration merits. I don't think going the evasion tank route is a bad idea either, but as you've said, the devs kinda hoped RUN would depend on support jobs to do it's main job, which is never a good idea. After messing around with RUN for a good long while, I have a couple thoughts of my own on the subject.

So after Inspiration was added, I found that Blink and Stoneskin were actually usable mid-battle. I also found they weren't very effective on anything high level. To me, these were meant to be RUN's Utsusemi for evading damage, but they're too weak. For Blink, it gives only two shadows, which are maybe 50% reliable at procing. On the other hand, Utsusemi: Ichi gives 3 shadows and is 100% reliable. And then there's Stoneskin which is still capped at 350 without any special cap breaking equipment. 350 damage isn't even worth a single auto attack from high level mobs at times.

So I think it's pretty obvious that Blink and Stoneskin could be brought up into modern times. Blink is a Lv19 spell (For WHM) that has not changed at all since the time you learn it since enhancing magic skill does nothing (Like most other enhancing spells). Blink should give more shadows, either by changing the spell itself to accomodate for higher enhancing magic (A buff for everyone), or through a trait or equipment for RUN (A buff only for RUN). I'd have Blink give 6 shadows. For enhancing magic I'd do (2 + (Enhancing Magic / 100)), so 6 at skill 400+. For a trait, I'd have RUN gain multiple tiers of it so that by Lv99 they'd have 6 shadows (Maybe two traits, one at Lv50, one at 95 or so? +2 shadows for each). Or, for equipment, just give +4 extra shadows, kinda how NIN's Empyrean feet give extra shadows to Utsusemi. Since we haven't had RUN's Empyrean armor added yet, this might be a good thing to consider adding to it.

Why 6 shadows though? Because again, Blink isn't exactly 100% reliable like Utsusemi, of which a NIN main can get 5 from Utsusemi: Ni with Empy feet. For one extra shadow compared to a NIN tank, which doesn't proc 100%, seems to be a fair thing to me. Also, Blink and Utsusemi can't be up at the same time, so there shouldn't be any worry about RUN/NINs being overpowered from having more blink shadows.

And for Stoneskin... Well, it just needs to give more than 350, which is the amount it was balanced at for Lv75 cap. 700+ seems a bit outragous, perhaps, but maybe 500ish? Again, can have enhancing magic effect it properly by removing the cap, or adding a trait to RUN, or a piece of RUN equipment that adds a decent bonus that's more than +10 to +20 like current pieces.

Inquartata could be a bit more powerful. Either by boosting the parry rate even more, or perhaps having a "partial parry" check when a full parry doesn't occur. Full parry would be -100% damage as it currently is, but a partial parry could be 25-50% damage reduced. So 20% chance for a full parry, then 50% for a partial parry to occur, so overall you'd have a 70% chance of some kind of damage reduction occuring.

Or, let Battuta last longer so I can have it up more than 30% of the time while I'm tanking 100% of the time, heh.

I just want to make it clear to the devs I really don't want to see changes occur to other jobs so they make better SJs as a fix to RUN. Buffing SAM or NIN to fix RUN just seems like taking the long road, and just wrong overall. RUN should be able to do it's thing entirely on it's own (As any job), with SJs being there strictly for support. RUN should have the choice of a variety of SJs depending on the goal they hope to achieve and not locked into a specific setup for all eternity with /sam or /nin for any serious content.

Oh, on a small note... If you remove enmity entirely from runes, does this mean they'll be on 1 second timers or less (This would be awesome)? Since you halved the enmity along with the recast in the previous update and all...

jobs have allways been locked to specific 2-3 subjobs to be efficience, I dont see why this shouldnt account for RUN. However i think RUN needs a bit more help.

I mean SCH is tied either to RDM or BLM subjob, considering their task
WAR is tied to either SAM or NIN subjob, considering their task
BLU is tied to either WAR NIN or RDM subjob
NIN is tied to either WAR and ... WAR (unless solo then DNC maybe)
the list goes on.

a PLD will sub WAR too for his tasks.

I dont see a problem with that, but the core mechanics of the Job arent yet there where they are supposed to be. A parry increase job trait that surpasses the 20% parry cap rate would definitly help.

[Muras]

Yeah, all jobs are still limited to certain SJs to a varying degree, I'm just saying RUN shouldn't NEED to use /NIN or /SAM to do what they're meant to do. Basically, they should still be able to tank even without a SJ period (Although it would be very inefficient). The support job is just something that's supposed to support and enhance the skills that're already (supposed to be) there. Still, I think we're on the same page here... I'm not saying RUN should be able to use anything as a support job, just that choosing something other than /NIN or /SAM shouldn't utterly destroy it's ability to perform it's role.

Also, the job trait Inquartata is a job trait that surpasses the parry cap rate. If I'm not mistaken, the rate for all other jobs is actually around 7-10% while Inquartata boosts it to around 17-19% or something. This is why I suggested it to be stronger... It really goes to show how weak parrying, not just for RUN but for all jobs, really is on it's own. It's kinda funny, because Shield for PLD used to work just like parrying way back in the day too... Low proc rate, but 100% damage reduction. They changed it to the current system because it was too unreliable, just like parrying is for RUN. That's why I suggested partial parrying, since it kinda works like shield but isn't quite as strong since you can still get full parries too.

[Cljader1]

PLDs cast cures when:
-You don't have a WHM
-Your WHM is slow, busy, or other wise unable to cast.
-You don't trust your WHM to do it fast enough.
-Your HP is so damn low not even a cure 6 is gonna cap you.
-You've got nothing better to do.

Cure enmity is pathetic. The only reason to cure for enmity is cause you have nothing else decent to cast. It's been getting worse as the level cap rose already. Then they nerfed the heck outta it during the major enmity adjustments. But subbing RDM just kills it even more. Do you know what Tranquil Heart is? Look it up. You clearly need to do more research on a great many levels.
Where exactly did I say to use /SAM. Or mention /SAM at all? You're showing a lack of reading comprehension here.
The fast cast cap is 80%. With inspiration, RUN can easily cap. Thus, the /RDM fast cast trait isn't gonna do anything.

My argument states the presence of a WHM. In this case there is ZERO need to haste yourself. I also acknowledged the utility of /RDM as a solo sub.

MAB is nice. We all like better swipe/lunge. But 25 MAB is entirely insufficient to make /RDM worth using for tanking purposes.
Do you see me mentioning RUN's DPS ANYWHERE in that post? Where did I call it a DD? Did you actually read my post. Or just skim it then spew your preconceptions based on what others have said about RUN before all over the forum?

Do you even play run? I see you as just being a Contrarian, you keep saying what you didn't say...Say something with substance. If you say /rdm is a poor subjob choice (which I highly disagree with) what are you saying is a good subjob choice?

[Kensagaku]

I've made this argument before, but I'll make it again to explain why /Rdm is a poor subjob except in some solo situations.

1) Fast Cast - With Inspiration at 5/5, Vallation/Valiance gives 50% Fast Cast. With Futhark Trousers worn on activation of either JA, that now becomes 60%. Combine that with the Runeist's Bandeau, which is 10% Fast Cast, and now we have 70% Fast Cast. Suddenly, we only need 10% Fast Cast to cap off the maximum Fast Cast value of 80%. This is accomplished numerous ways, one of the easiest ways simply being Orvail Pants +1 (6%) and Chelona Boots (4%) to cap you off. Therefore, /rdm's fast cast is worthless.

2) Spell list - Haste and Cure IV are nice, but /whm grants them in solo situations just the same, as well as providing -na spells and Erase, not to mention Reraise for tricky battles. The only other spells that /rdm provides of any use are debuffs... and while you'll land those in WoE (one of the places I *do* condone /rdm as sub), any serious content you'll be resisted anyway thanks to subjob enfeebling skill. Phalanx? Got it. Refresh? Got it.

3) MAB II's lack of value - While this helps our Swipe and Lunge abilities a little, the effect isn't particularly huge. Additionally, with the JA delay, you're just slowing yourself down unless it's a last hit. Resolution will do more than Lunge, and thus generate more enmity in the short term if you're tanking. And it won't eat your runes, which if you're soloing, means you won't get eaten for your sudden lack of magic evasion. Mind you, these are small arguments; MAB II just plays such a small role and with the other two factors, /rdm is not a good subjob in most situations.

Now, if you've actually read the thread (shocking, I know! Who doesn't come into the middle of a thread without reading previous posts?) then you'd note that several subjobs were mentioned as ideal, and justification given for them. /WHM for a solo sub, providing almost all of the benefits of /RDM and then some. /SAM for a alliance sub, so you can switch between DD and emergency tanking. /NIN for situations where you're the full tank and need to mitigate physical damage substantially. These are your ideal subs as a Rune Fencer. It's not to say /RDM doesn't have some niche values, but it's just that: niche.

[Cljader1]

Now, if you've actually read the thread (shocking, I know! Who doesn't come into the middle of a thread without reading previous posts?) then you'd note that several subjobs were mentioned as ideal, and justification given for them. /WHM for a solo sub, providing almost all of the benefits of /RDM and then some. /SAM for a alliance sub, so you can switch between DD and emergency tanking. /NIN for situations where you're the full tank and need to mitigate physical damage substantially. These are your ideal subs as a Rune Fencer. It's not to say /RDM doesn't have some niche values, but it's just that: niche.

Now I would say that you are the one that's not reading, seeing that I've made several posts starting from the very beginning and did not come in the middle of the thread. I also laid out and argument on why whm & rdm are very good subs, first starting with the cures both subs provide. Run can spam cure spells faster than any other job in the game. Furthermore, /rdm also gives you "Convert," those times where your low on mp you and Battuta-->Stoneskin-->Elemental Sforzo-->Convert-->Cure IV+Vivi stack and your back in the game. A tank needs to be somewhat self reliant and /sam just does not do it and /nin is bad also there too many end game mobs that will wipe all your shadows and damage you all with one attack. The almost instantaneous cures and with a vivi stack is damn near priceless and shadows or /sam just can't stack up

[Martel]

Run can spam cure spells faster than any other job in the game.

WHM and RUN have exactly the same casting speed on cures. -80% cast time(this being the cap.) And so does RDM, and SCH. And every other job that can hit the fast cast cap. Although that was most of em right there, I think.

You would cast faster than a PLD. But I generally let the WHM do the curing when I'm PLD.

Do you even play run? I see you as just being a Contrarian, you keep saying what you didn't say...Say something with substance. If you say /rdm is a poor subjob choice (which I highly disagree with) what are you saying is a good subjob choice?

If someone quoted you, then went on a rant about something that had nothing to do with your post, you wouldn't feel the need to note that you didn't say anything like that? Well, maybe that wouldn't bother you. But people trying to put their words in my mouth seriously puts my back up.

If objecting to the use of a support job that offers... nothing of substance, in a non-solo situation where support jobs are present makes me contrarian. Then I must be.

Now, can we establish the context here? Maybe if I do it loud enough, No one will jump down my throat over things I didn't say.

I've twice before now(let this be the third then. No more, No less.) Noted the utility of /RDM as a solo sub. Go ahead and add lowman to that too. Specifically, lacking decent support, /RDM has its benefits.

I'm speaking of RUN as a tank, not a soloist.

The time when I don't think /RDM worth using(at all) is when a WHM(or even SCH) is present. Cures, covered. Better cures than yours, with higher potency, and better mp efficiency. Haste? Covered. Convert? Well, I'll toss you a devotion. But you're not self curing, the heck are you burning all your MP on? Or better yet, let's just bring a bard and put up some ballads.

If RUN is seriously being used as a Tank, this kind of support should not be unreasonable. So what does /RDM still offer that makes it worth using? And if you're getting beat down so bad that a WHM can't keep you up without you pitching in cures too, well... Probably not something RUN can reasonable tank then. Or you need shadows to survive, assuming even they'd save you. Although, certainly, there are a lot of mobs shadows don't help much on. In which case, you still wouldn't be /RDM.

I can do some write ups on enmity generation focused subs if you'd like. So long as the proper context is kept in mind for said subs. Kensagaku didn't leave much for me to say about more general subs.

[Selindrile]

Run can spam cure spells faster than any other job in the game.

Nahtirah Hat -10%
Pahtli Cape -8%
Loquacious Earring -2%
Repartie Gloves -2%
Heka's Kalasiris -15%
Orvail Pants +1 = -5%
Incantor Stone = -2%
Orunmila's Torque = -5%
Genbu's Shield = -1~8%
Prolix Ring = -2%
Witful Belt = -3%
Chelona Boots +1 = -5%
Swith Cape +1 = -4%
Atinian Staff +1 = -2%

This is all off the top of my head I'm sure there are plenty more options out there, Whm, Sch, Rdm, Run can hit -80% cap in their sleep. Blm, Brd, Geo, Smn, Pup (lol) can all the cap (Or almost in Pup's case) with Rdm or Sch sub.

/Rdm isn't terribly great, Convert is situationally useful, but not all that much. It obviously depends on your target, but on most targets /Nin (Shadows are great for many things), /Dnc (stun and waltzes are pretty cost efficient cures), and even /Blu (head butt, refueling and cocoon), will be more efficient at reducing/or curing back damage taken over time than /Rdm ever really is. Sam is a better option for when you're primarily offense, but may occasionally tank. Or War for the same type of situation where you might need Berserk/Aggressor. And as Kensagaku pointed out, the extra fast cast from /Rdm is useless with the proper gear.

You're really making an argument for Cure4 and Convert, nothing else, and they're very inefficient versus the other options. The only time I generally have Cure4 on Run is when I'm /Whm, and that's primarily for -na spells or supporting a partner with Barspells/Cures/Haste. (Duoed souls for a while with a Thf.)

While there are situations where Rdm is a decent solo sub, even that is less frequent than Nin, Blu, or Dnc and Whm as a solo sub.

[Cljader1]

Nahtirah Hat -10%
Pahtli Cape -8%
Loquacious Earring -2%
Repartie Gloves -2%
Heka's Kalasiris -15%
Orvail Pants +1 = -5%
Incantor Stone = -2%
Orunmila's Torque = -5%
Genbu's Shield = -1~8%
Prolix Ring = -2%
Witful Belt = -3%
Chelona Boots +1 = -5%
Swith Cape +1 = -4%
Atinian Staff +1 = -2%

That's alot of gear to equal a run/rdm native cure casting speed,

You're really making an argument for Cure4 and Convert, nothing else, and they're very inefficient versus the other options. The only time I generally have Cure4 on Run is when I'm /Whm, and that's primarily for -na spells or supporting a partner with Barspells/Cures/Haste. (Duoed souls for a while with a Thf.)

While there are situations where Rdm is a decent solo sub, even that is less frequent than Nin, Blu, or Dnc and Whm as a solo sub.

/rdm adds more Mp, Cure3, Cure4, MaB, Convert, Fast Cast, Sneak, Invisible, Haste, Raise (on a very fast timer), much more efficient and safer way to tank than third eye Seigan or /nin shadows (shadows are not what they use to be) alot boss mobs go through shadows like they were non existent (not a viable option IMO) and in lowman situation you cant rely on a mage to babysit you, you got to win and that means being more self reliant so I go /rdm