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  1. #11
    Player saevel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,345
    Character
    Saevel
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    RDM Lv 99
    Yeah I have no idea what queens was yamming on about, /RDM is pretty when compared to /WHM, /NIN and SAM.

    It doesn't gain any offensive bonuses to it (I literally cannot tell you of any time I've needed to dualwield swords or axes) but it is meant to be a way to mitigate physical damage, which is RUN's biggest weakness at the moment.
    Shark and Bee delve runs. Swords are for anytime you need to spam requiescat due to -PDT making GS useless. That being said, right now there is exactly one good sword for RUN, and your gonna be off handing the Eminent Sword. Axe is a slightly different issue, Ruinator is a monstrously powerful WS whenever your not receiving Chaos roll + min's. It has a ~35% attack bonus to go with it's 4+1 hits and it copies fTP for 1.2 per hit. Again RUN's only choice is the Eminent Axe which is pretty decent while off handing either the Enminent sword or the AAEV one.

    With no +skill gear I have,
    440 GS (8/8 Merits)
    433 Sword (8/8 Merits)
    406 Gaxe (4/8 Merits)
    396 Axe (4/8 Merits)

    I'm in the process of reassigning axe merits to gaxe since I've got my 119 Bravura for WAR and for the situations that make Axe useful the 16 skill isn't going to matter much.

    /SAM is for laying down the pain in group situations. It lets you ramp up damage and actually be worth the spot your taking. It's been my experience that RUN is far better as a support melee then a paper tank. If someone learns the dangerous moves of the various NM's / boss's you can time Valiance to give your party a ridiculously powerful damage reduction to those dangerous moves. OFA acts as a c*ck block when you either see the NM casting something really dangerous or you know a big annoying move is about to come. Lunge / Swipe are also useful damage moves, especially if the targets have a weakness to magic damage.
    (1)
    Last edited by saevel; 03-09-2014 at 05:03 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelix
    Ragnarok's aftermath is only 5% crit rate, even with lv99, so there's almost no point in using Scourge, you just spam Resolution. Even then you become just a boring meathead DD.

    Apoc with both Catastrophe and Entropy gives you crazy sustain of both HP and MP. With the Haste aftermath you can wear a ton of -PDT and solo almost any 75 content.
    Doing damage is for WAR's, DRK is about soloing 75 content yo.....

  2. #12
    Community Rep Camate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,712
    Greetings,

    The development team is aware that rune fencer is in need of some tuning and they are planning further adjustments.

    Rune fencer has been created as a tank that is especially strong against magical attacks, but when it comes to physical damage, the team envisioned that rune fencers would adopt ninja or samurai as their support jobs to evade or parry the attacks that come their way.

    We plan on adding more equipment moving forward to ramp up their defenses, but the development team would also like to improve the issue where it’s difficult to generate enmity. The current popular trend to use Rune Enchantment over and over to generate enmity is making it difficult to attack and offer support, and we feel this is not the right direction.

    Due to this, we are looking into adjustments for the future to eliminate the enmity from Rune Enchantment and increase enmity generating methods in a variety of ways.

    As we are still in the planning phases for this, I’m unable to give any specifics for what adjustments will be made, but please know that we are planning to make adjustments for rune fencer’s enmity in the future.
    (6)
    Devin "Camate" Casadey - Community Team

  3. #13
    Player Gannon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    86
    Character
    Gannon
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
    Main Class
    DRK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Camate View Post
    the team envisioned that rune fencers would adopt ninja or samurai as their support jobs to evade or parry the attacks that come their way.
    I am pretty sure the casting time and recast penalties from Hasso and Seigan kill SAM's usefulness as a tanking sub for RUN.
    (20)

  4. #14
    Player HimuraKenshyn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    181
    Character
    Starskyy
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    I just hope the development team understand exactly how much physical damage a RUN takes is considerable against anything big and is the single biggest issue parry does not stack up to shield block at all and no mob worth its salt in game is solely magical so meh. Many have tried to just turn RUN into a another support dd if its used at all which is sad. We really could use a alternative tank vs all the things lol. Add a 242 skill -Physical damage taken great sword basically a GS version of a Burtgang for starters that breaks the cap and see where we can go lol..
    (3)
    Last edited by HimuraKenshyn; 03-15-2014 at 06:00 AM.
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  5. #15
    Player
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    166
    A job should never have to depend upon a subjob to function properly.
    (20)

  6. #16
    Player Vivivivi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    554
    Character
    Bananavivi
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BLM Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Camate View Post
    Greetings,

    The development team is aware that rune fencer is in need of some tuning and they are planning further adjustments.

    Rune fencer has been created as a tank that is especially strong against magical attacks, but when it comes to physical damage, the team envisioned that rune fencers would adopt ninja or samurai as their support jobs to evade or parry the attacks that come their way.

    We plan on adding more equipment moving forward to ramp up their defenses, but the development team would also like to improve the issue where it’s difficult to generate enmity. The current popular trend to use Rune Enchantment over and over to generate enmity is making it difficult to attack and offer support, and we feel this is not the right direction.

    Due to this, we are looking into adjustments for the future to eliminate the enmity from Rune Enchantment and increase enmity generating methods in a variety of ways.

    As we are still in the planning phases for this, I’m unable to give any specifics for what adjustments will be made, but please know that we are planning to make adjustments for rune fencer’s enmity in the future.
    I'm all for Rune Fencer getting further adjustments, but I'd like to share some extensive hands on testing I did with Rune Fencer since the last update:
    At level 99 with all level 109 AF1 gear (at least) and some 109 pieces of the Fulhark Set, I decided to try out some subjob combinations with Rune Fencer.

    I didn't feel SAM worked well as a subjob for tanking, but it was nice if I wanted to be a bit more of a damage dealer. I tried NIN as well, but felt that shadows were too easily wiped, and I didn't see much value in the subtle blow or increases to parrying.

    Next logical choice was WAR. Provoke is helpful for holding enmity, but with my equipment I saw little increase in overall attack power. Double attack seemed to proc more (I have the double attack neck and earrings from delve, and an eponas ring and windbuffet belt). But statistically speaking, the overall bonus from WAR was mostly for provoke.

    Interestingly enough I found most success subbing RDM on RUN. The bonus fast cast trait cuts down on cast time a lot, the haste spell speeds up attacks and recasts, and with a handful of cure potency pieces (the belt from WKR, ring from WKR and Bismark neck) made my cure 4s jump up to a serviceable level both for myself and for party members.

    With RDM being my goto choice for subjob, I then rethought my macros. My main ones are something like this:

    WARD-ME: runs through all of the single target wards plus swordplay.
    WARD-PT: runs through all of the party wide wards plus magic barrier.
    CURE-ME: Uses Vivacious Pulse with a 1 sec wait and cure 4 on myself.
    And then I have a macro for each elemental rune with whatever the minimum wait is (I think 4 seconds now).

    I Also have a swipe/lunge macro which will do a swipe, rune recast, and lunge and I just modify which rune depending on what I'm doing at the time.

    All of these are enmity magnets. I decided to further test by joining a Yumcax shout.

    To my surprise I main tanked the entire fight. There were two Aegis paladins and an Ochain Paladin as well, but by staggering the above macros and tossing flash in occasionally, I was able to not only hold enmity, but also survive (keeping foil up always is key for that). That is, until I ran out of hallowed water XD.

    There was a Kumhau fight immediately afterwards, so I figured I was on a roll, might as well join.

    My friend, an Aegis PLD joined, and then the rest of the group decided to go to Cezik Battlegrounds (after we enter of course). So we decided to just start anyway and see what would happen.

    We were both pretty surprised that a PLD and RUN duo managed to hold Kumhau without any issues for about 15-20 minutes until more people started showing up. Having a PLD and a RUN in the same party works great– Paladin excels at absorbing more raw damage, and can cover or help heal the Rune Fencer, while Rune Fencer avoids a lot more enfeebles, and can take over while the Paladin recovers from those. It was very much like a tag-team in wrestling in a way.

    As that fight went on, we continued that strategy, which worked great until about 1/4th of the way to go where something got the PLD. I survived on Rune Fencer the entire time, and got some in-game applause from other players haha.

    So yeah, as of right now, Rune Fencer is a functional tank in some situations! Maybe not for the most challenging end-game content yet, but certainly for some current some-what challenging content. My recommendation is to try to stagger self wards with party wards, toss swipes and lunges in when you can afford to be without a rune briefly, and stack some cure potency items while subbing RDM and I think you'll also find it a lot easier to be the focus of the enemy.
    (6)

  7. #17
    Player FaeQueenCory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    500
    Quote Originally Posted by Gannon View Post
    I am pretty sure the casting time and recast penalties from Hasso and Seigan kill SAM's usefulness as a tanking sub for RUN.
    Oh they don't just kill it...
    They dissolve it into a fine mist...
    +50% casting time and +50% recast can't even be 0'd by full inspiration merits... Cause you'll still be left at +25% recast...
    Which I guess capped gear haste can zero that...

    But isn't that the mark of crappiness when you have to work just to zero something that would otherwise kill you?

    EDIT: I can 100% substantiate Vivivivi.
    RDM is, hands down, the BEST subjob for RUN. The fast cast, the cures... The compliment what RUN already does perfectly.

    /nin... Just makes you a crappy NIN, IMO... The subtle blow doesn't really matter for RUN... And the DW is basically only good for that ONE time RUN needs to requiescat...
    And, as mentioned, /sam is... Just the worst.

    I would also like to add that RUN needs the refesh from the Runeist body.
    Please for the love of all that is holy... Make the 119 Futhark body gain a refresh+1... While 2mp refesh is great... 1mp is what PLDs get for free and any PLD can tell you how much a godsend that autorefresh is.

    Here's the easy fix for RUN, devs:
    1) Give it THE SAME crazystupid high values of PDT that PLD gets. 2s and 3s are NOT equal to 4s and 5s... And in that same note, straight DT: -6 =/= -8 and -9...
    2) When you do give RUN the -DT values... Don't jank the rest of the piece's stats. Why does 119 Futhark Bandeau have almost the EXACT statline of the 109 Runiest Bandeau? Cause that -PDT needed to be gimped out? PLD RFs don't seem to have this problem. (And in this note, -6DT would be wonderful to have... But the loss of the 2mp/tic all the time causes the job to hemorrhage MP... And switching all your runes to be able to restore a middling amount of MP doesn't help that... Which, btw, is probably why the devs believe that changing runes is how we keep and maintain enmity... We're doing it cause we don't have a chivalry and only dark runes give mp...)
    3) refresh. It needs this. Always. Not using a body with at least 1mp refresh... Causes your mp to just bleed everywhere.
    It's as bad as a WHM who isn't using the AF3+2 pants. (Or even the AF3+1)

    I think this news that the devs intended... /sam.... To be "the subjob"... For RUN... Is worrisome...
    Cause I'm a SMN... And what the devs intended for that job was NOT how that job is or was EVER played.
    And I'm seeing this happening with RUN...
    This also explains why they thought RUNs were wearing Thaumas Coats for the Acc...
    Sure we got a +acc trait... which is good for keeping enmity because RUN generates and keeps enmity through damage...
    But...
    Please don't listen to me too hard about the refresh... Don't give RUN refresh II... Don't give RUN auto-refresh JT...
    Just give Futhark Coat +1 at least 1mp refresh... 0r better yet... Get rid of that insulting regen+2 and make it refresh... RUN has like 6hp/tic autoregen... It doesn't need two more...
    And make sure the fake!empy body has 1-2mp/tic refresh on it.
    (1 saves your mp, 2 means you will never have problems)
    (3)
    Last edited by FaeQueenCory; 03-15-2014 at 07:47 AM.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Camate View Post
    Greetings,

    The development team is aware that rune fencer is in need of some tuning and they are planning further adjustments.

    Rune fencer has been created as a tank that is especially strong against magical attacks, but when it comes to physical damage, the team envisioned that rune fencers would adopt ninja or samurai as their support jobs to evade or parry the attacks that come their way.

    We plan on adding more equipment moving forward to ramp up their defenses, but the development team would also like to improve the issue where it’s difficult to generate enmity. The current popular trend to use Rune Enchantment over and over to generate enmity is making it difficult to attack and offer support, and we feel this is not the right direction.

    Due to this, we are looking into adjustments for the future to eliminate the enmity from Rune Enchantment and increase enmity generating methods in a variety of ways.

    As we are still in the planning phases for this, I’m unable to give any specifics for what adjustments will be made, but please know that we are planning to make adjustments for rune fencer’s enmity in the future.

    Serriously? doesn't parry max out at 5% effectiveness? and we are supposed to rely on that for defense? for evasion I'd go thief or dnc and as to blink tanking with the bosses all spamming AoE in endgame it's never seemed worth it to me. quite frankly I see more survivability from the para effect on my Ice Spikes. I usually sub whm or rdm, I like the reraise and dispel options between the two. I've had SOME success /war as well depending on the other jobs in party, but nothing special. I tend to think the haste from the mages is more useful than voke or berserk. I'd think making an ability like "Counting Coup: damage reduced 2/3, enmity 500%, haste +12%, duration 3 minutes, recast 3 minutes" would work better since it would allow us to do damage when we need to (generally when soloing) but go in to pure tanking in a party; of course it would cut the almighty DPS parser so you would probably hear the screaming from the american players clear in Tokyo. either that or take off the cap on parry effectiveness with a major enmity boost for a parried attack, and add Riposte-a fencing trait analagous to counter, also generating significant enmity.

    But whatever, it's your game.
    (1)
    Last edited by Glamdring; 03-15-2014 at 07:48 AM.

  9. #19
    Player Martel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    249
    Character
    Martel
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    DRG Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Vivivivi View Post
    Interestingly enough I found most success subbing RDM on RUN. The bonus fast cast trait cuts down on cast time a lot, the haste spell speeds up attacks and recasts, and with a handful of cure potency pieces (the belt from WKR, ring from WKR and Bismark neck) made my cure 4s jump up to a serviceable level both for myself and for party members.
    Do you not have inspiration merits or something?

    RUN can get +60% fast cast from inspiration, with 5/5 merits and relic augment. Leaving a mere 20% to gear till the fast cast cap. This is also fulltime-able, barring unlucky dispels.

    The fast cast from /RDM should have little to no effect on RUN.(excepting maybe on kumhau, since he like to spam full dispel...)

    Overall, I'm of the opinion that /RDM is a poor choice for a tanking sub. On anything serious, the curing would be primarily left to the healers. And they'd be hasting you too. The fast cast should have minimal impact. Most RDM buffs overlap with RUNs spell list. There's very little to be gained here.

    As a Solo sub, /RDM quite a decent choice. Self haste and Cures become useful again in the absence of a healer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camate View Post
    Greetings,

    The development team is aware that rune fencer is in need of some tuning and they are planning further adjustments.

    Rune fencer has been created as a tank that is especially strong against magical attacks, but when it comes to physical damage, the team envisioned that rune fencers would adopt ninja or samurai as their support jobs to evade or parry the attacks that come their way.

    We plan on adding more equipment moving forward to ramp up their defenses, but the development team would also like to improve the issue where it’s difficult to generate enmity. The current popular trend to use Rune Enchantment over and over to generate enmity is making it difficult to attack and offer support, and we feel this is not the right direction.

    Due to this, we are looking into adjustments for the future to eliminate the enmity from Rune Enchantment and increase enmity generating methods in a variety of ways.

    As we are still in the planning phases for this, I’m unable to give any specifics for what adjustments will be made, but please know that we are planning to make adjustments for rune fencer’s enmity in the future.
    It floors me that SE thinks Rune Fencer is lacking in enmity generation capability. They're Way better off than PLD in terms of native enmity actions available to them. But before I repeat myself too much, I pretty much just posted about this already... See here.

    If RUN's enmity generation is insufficient, could you take a look at PLD please, SE? If RUN enmity needs a buff, then PLD must too. <,<;

    If anything, all RUN needs in terms of enmity generation, is better access to enmity+ gear. For a job labeled as a tank, their AF and Relic are decidedly lacking in it.

    Furthermore, with the advent of enmity+ gear reducing enmity loss via damage, there's a need for enmity+ on PDT pieces. Pretty much the only RUN wearable gear that meets that requirement is pre-Ilvl. Thus missing tons off def/stats, and effectively unusable for a PDT set.

    Well, new gear is planned for better defenses, can maybe work some enmity+ into that?
    (4)

  10. #20
    Player FaeQueenCory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    500
    Quote Originally Posted by Martel View Post
    Do you not have inspiration merits or something?

    RUN can get +60% fast cast from inspiration, with 5/5 merits and relic augment. Leaving a mere 20% to gear till the fast cast cap. This is also fulltime-able, barring unlucky dispels.

    The fast cast from /RDM should have little to no effect on RUN.(excepting maybe on kumhau, since he like to spam full dispel...)

    Overall, I'm of the opinion that /RDM is a poor choice for a tanking sub. On anything serious, the curing would be primarily left to the healers. And they'd be hasting you too. The fast cast should have minimal impact. Most RDM buffs overlap with RUNs spell list. There's very little to be gained here.

    As a Solo sub, /RDM quite a decent choice. Self haste and Cures become useful again in the absence of a healer.
    Clearly...
    You either have never done any 119 content...
    Or have never done it on PLD...
    Or have been blind when you do it...

    Because PLDs cast cures.
    Regardless of how good your WHM is.
    Your PLD will drop cures on themselves... Because that helps maintain enmity and makes life easier.

    And you're just plain wrong. There is no benefit to /sam... Because thanks to iLvs, the STR bonus from hasso is basically worthless. (Cause it's so small it's negligible.)
    And when you have to go through work just to 0 your subjob's effect on your main job... THAT's the sign of a bad subjob.

    Cure4: saves your life
    FC: let's see... You argue that +0%FC > -95% cast time... Cause THAT makes sense... A job that lives off of it's enhancing magic... SS namely... Surely will NOT benefit from 2s cast times...
    MAB: yeah... Increasing your Lunge and Swipe damage... Which increases your enmity... Which lets you hold hate better... Yup... That's totally not helpful at all... 9_9
    Haste: sure, it's not JA haste... So it doesn't give you crazy delay reduction... But then...

    And I realize that this is a VERY hard concept for most ppl to grasp about RUN...

    RUN is NOT a DD.
    (2)

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