Future Plans for Equipment

[MDenham]

Now this I can understand, but it still doesn't sit right with me how dramatically more powerful equipment seemed to become overnight. Weapons literally more than doubled in power (which is kind of ridiculous, if you ask me, even for an alleged 20-level gap). However much equipment you were using before was almost all rendered effectively worthless by whatever SE feels like should be the new best-in-slot at the time. In effect, it's actually a worse deal for players whose inventories were cramped with gear swaps--sure, they have tons more free inventory space now, but only because all their prior treasure has since turned to trash!

And you know as well as I do that SE will keep populating the "Level 119" tier of equipment with rewards from whatever new content they want players to participate in. As I seem to have missed your point, you seem to have missed mine: what's stopping them from decimating relevant content all over again simply by introducing a new "top tier" item level on a whim, obtained from a single event that--if Delve is anything to go by--probably isn't any fun, either?

Part of why weapons went up in power as much as they did is because their progression hadn't matched even a linear progression (in DPS terms, that is) between 75 and 99 - you look at the highest DPS weapons in the 75 era, they sit around 13-15 DPS... and by the time you hit 99, they're around 16-17 DPS. In the immortal (but slightly censored) words of a Picard image macro, "WTF is this derp?"

That, more than anything, is where Abyssea's problems were: armor progression was good (actually, armor progression was kind of ridiculous because pretty much all of your gear was obsoleted, setting the stage for what we see now), but weapon progression was - for the most part, anyway - a giant pile of derp.

And I could have sworn I answered the "what's stopping them" question: the only thing that's stopping them is their idea of balance. We could get another wholesale change of direction in six months, or three years, or whatever where they decide to raise the actual level cap to something ridiculous rather than going on this gear-progression treadmill. Or it could remain fairly true to what they've said in the past, and 99(119) is where it stops.

Really, only one thing is certain: people are going to complain no matter what SE does. Trying to make everyone happy is a lost cause, like it is in any field. You just try to make the most people happy that you can.

[Jerbob]

(Insert obligatory rant about how awful the item level system is)

People are constantly concerned that their hard-earned equipment is going to be rendered obsolete within a couple of months of it being introduced. The work people put into augments that are going to be replaced almost immediately is a shining example of this issue. SE's future plans need to take this into account - vertical progression simply does NOT work properly in this game. If SE is so insistent on retaining the insanity of item levels, rather than a character-based level system (using an existing system like merits), then the cap has to stay at 119. Otherwise, zap us and our gear back to level 99 and sort out an alternative level representing system that actually works.

This game is built on a foundation of gear having various uses for various jobs. There's an (admittedly inadequate) macroing system and tons of stats spread across tons of jobs that cement this feature as a keystone upon which the game relies. It's something that I feel makes this game more appealing than some of the alternatives. As things stand, there are only a very limited number of item level appropriate equipment sets available, all conforming to SE's already lamentably short-sighted "mage/light DD/heavy DD" paradigm. This is not going to be enough to support the game's fundamental job and stat system when combined with item levels - yes, it's (unfortunately) the system they've always conformed to, but when there are ten sets of level-appropriate mage/light DD/heavy DD available, increasing all the time through horizontal progression, there's something to suit everyone somewhere. As thing stands, players have to wear otherwise useless gear with item level stat vomit just to stay alive - and for jobs with specific stat requirements, like SMN, that's not different to being forced to use pure DEF gear at 99. Some jobs - SMN being another prime example - have only just escaped from this gear pigeonholing.

There needs to be a horizontal spread or jobs are going to be left out. Horizontal spread is intrinsically incompatible with the vertical progression system.

SE's specific announcement here is fine, I guess. There's nothing particularly horrible in it, and some potentially interesting additions. However, these aren't really the kind of "future plans" that we need to be seeing. It's important for players to be able to understand what SE's long term intent is with regard to the item level and vertical progression paradigms as a whole - fundamental questions such as "Are things going to keep increasing?" have already been raised in this thread, and they are so important because they change the whole nature of the game. By not supplying us with this sort of information about long-term plans and general intent with regard to progression, SE is not answering the fundamental question that a lot of us would like clarified - where is this all going and, as a result, should we even be bothering..

Who's stopping you guys from creating Item Level 120 items on a lark? 139? 159? 9001? If Vana'diel intends to survive for another 11 years, we need stronger levies against such rampant, spiraling power creep between players and enemies both.

This Tarutaru presents the issue brilliantly.

[Catmato]

Basically we will not be making it so you need to have older equipment to obtain the new equipment, and for the exceptions where you can upgrade and there are requirements to exchange existing equipment, we feel it necessary to make it easier to obtain the original item as well as have a way to recover the items if they were thrown away.

I feel that much of the playerbase would rather upgrade their gear so that they have something to make continual progress on. Also, so they don't have to throw away everything they worked for every couple months due to being outdated.

[Demonjustin]

I would like both options. Do something similar to that of Reforged Gear.

If you have the original Hagondes Coat you need 5000 blah points to obtain Hagondes Coat +1 and all augments are transferred over.
If you do not have the original Hagondes Coat, you need 10000 blah points to obtain Hagondes Coat +1, but it must be augmented normally.

Players with and without the original can obtain the new piece of gear, players with the old version have an easier time obtaining it, and continue to have use of their augments, win win for everyone.

[detlef]

I feel that much of the playerbase would rather upgrade their gear so that they have something to make continual progress on. Also, so they don't have to throw away everything they worked for every couple months due to being outdated.

It really depends on the piece. Upgraded AF, Relic, Empyrean, and Salvage armor all work because that gear is all easy to get now. Would you want to see upgraded Pulse weapons if you didn't have one?

Oh and no more random augments. All that Skirmish gear is weeping.

[Catmato]

It really depends on the piece. Upgraded AF, Relic, Empyrean, and Salvage armor all work because that gear is all easy to get now. Would you want to see upgraded Pulse weapons if you didn't have one?

Oh and no more random augments. All that Skirmish gear is weeping.

I kinda meant current gear. Let us upgrade the stuff we're already wearing.

[Demonjustin]

Basically I think Catmato is saying we do not need another +1 set like we had for the Bayld sets, where its +1 and NQ had literally no relationship with one another in their obtainment, you could not upgrade the originals to +1 if you tried, you had to throw them away and buy the new +1 gear.

[detlef]

Basically I think Catmato is saying we do not need another +1 set like we had for the Bayld sets, where its +1 and NQ had literally no relationship with one another in their obtainment, you could not upgrade the originals to +1 if you tried, you had to throw them away and buy the new +1 gear.

I think we can agree that no good came of that. The implementation of Bayld +1 gear and RoE gear was just bizarre especially after Yorcia Skirmish.

[Catmato]

Basically I think Catmato is saying we do not need another +1 set like we had for the Bayld sets, where its +1 and NQ had literally no relationship with one another in their obtainment, you could not upgrade the originals to +1 if you tried, you had to throw them away and buy the new +1 gear.

I wasn't talking about those specifically, but that's a very good example. I'd rather spend Sparks upgrading my Espial gear than throw it away and buy new stuff.

[Glamdring]

the biggest problem I see with this is what amongst the gear we've gotten in the last few end-game pools of gear can safely be tossed as never relevant again. even with the porter system there is a large quantity of gear that is not porterable or muleable that is R/EX. I don't want to toss a piece that took alot of effort to make, is now irrelevant and then have you make it upgradeable down the road. An example would be all those elemental and TP axes I made for beast with Magian trials. I would be infuriated if I was told they are forever useless, toss them, then 6 months later get a "Good news, in the next version update your elemental magian gear will be upgradeable through a new..."