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  1. #1
    Player Kavik's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Sandy
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    254
    Character
    Kavik
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99

    Enmity in general

    A while ago it was stated that the enmity adjustments that were implemented a while ago would be the 'first stage' of enmity adjustments. No further adjustments have been forthcoming. We still have problems with enmity. This was very apparent in the Ark Angel EV fight. The battle took a very long time and eventually the whm hit enmity cap. Mob ran over and hit him and then returned to me as the pld, i had not died or anything else. This really needs to be fixed. Honestly, as having both pld and whm i would not mind enmity being on one person the majority of the fight. Pld is supposed to keep hold of the mob and 'save' everyone else. We can do this, as long as it's in the short term. Mayhap make everyone's elses enmity decay faster? I don't know, just something to make it easier for pld's to hold hate regardless of how long the fight takes. Could apply the same to RUN I suppose. People still care about this stuff. I'd suggest giving pld the ability to actually do decent damage so that when we inevitably lose enmity we can still be useful as a source of damage, but it has been explicitly stated that 'it shall not be done'.
    (5)
    FFXI forever! 99 PLD THF DRG DNC WHM SCH BRD BLM BLU BST
    Burtgang Excalibur Aegis Ochain


  2. #2
    Player Kavik's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Sandy
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    254
    Character
    Kavik
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Necro-Bumping this thread because Enmity has not been 'fixed'. Enmity cap is still enmity cap and pld still doesn't have a decent way to deal with it. Even with a 119 Burtgang AND lvl 3 aftermath it is still a hate bounce scenario.
    (0)
    FFXI forever! 99 PLD THF DRG DNC WHM SCH BRD BLM BLU BST
    Burtgang Excalibur Aegis Ochain


  3. #3
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    802
    Character
    Jeremi
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    I think Enmity is fine.

    This game would be boring if all anyone had to do was bring a paladin and turn everything into a tank an spank dps race. Part of what makes this game more fun than other MMORPGs I have played is there is actually some strategy involved and other party members actually become targets.

    I think the real problem with Paladins is our most effective job ability for protecting party members who generate a lot of enmity - cover - is horribly designed. Trying to use it is a pain in the @$$. It should be like on other Final Fantasy games where it causes the Paladin to automatically leap in front of the member you are trying to protect or at the very least transfer the damage directly. Because making it a positional ability requires too much hassle and just isn't realistic.

    I also think paladin gear should have a lot more -spell interruption on it so it could play it's role as a heal/tank more effectively.
    (0)

  4. #4
    Player Malthar's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    674
    Character
    Malthar
    World
    Shiva
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    BST Lv 99
    Enmity is not fine. The paladin is abe to hold hate for a few seconds, at most, before the dd's cap hate with massive damage, then hate bounces around like a kid on coffee. Even with perfect gear the paladin cannot hold hate. It's ridiculous and needs to be fixed.
    (2)

  5. #5
    Player Mefuki's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
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    224
    Character
    Mefuki
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post510611

    Quote Originally Posted by dasva View Post
    The problem isn't how much hate the pld can get since a good one will be capped too. The problem is even how dmg enmity is calculated. It's based mostly on dmg dealt and a little on mob level... the problem with this is the amount of dmg enmity you can accrue on a mob varies wildly with mob hp. So even if you balanced enmity around some nms so that DDs would hit the cap around when it died if you then fought something with twice as much hp DDs would cap at 50%.

    Specifically to compare most nms in 75 era when the enmity was semi balanced had what 40-50k hp? Maybe 100k on a few. Even with 100k hp you were looking at 153k dmg CE at most. And that was only alliance sometimes multiple alliance content. So if you spread it out between the DDs and account for some loss from dmg or -enmity gear it's fairly easy to make sure people don't cap till it's almost dead at least in theory.

    Now we have mobs with 2 mil hp and even with the higher level and changes in enmity there is almost around 900k dmg CE available... when CE cap per player is 10k... so yeah it's actually possible to cap hate on some nms now after doing only 1% dmg to it <.< Mind you this is post dmg enmity adjustment. Before that same mob would have had over double that.

    So yeah my proposal is to get rid of the whole level based correction factor and use mob hp instead. Such that every mob regardless of hp you will get the same amount of CE from dealing enough dmg to kill it. Something around enough to cap say 6 players or so. Maybe more for nms that you can assume you'd bring more than a pt for.... or add something that figures in pt size.
    (1)
    Last edited by Mefuki; 11-02-2014 at 08:24 AM.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5cfpeJGwi2KhQjNvCkk5Cg

  6. #6
    Player Byrth's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    2,172
    Character
    Byrth
    World
    Lakshmi
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    DNC Lv 99
    Seconded.


    Also, I think triplets made this post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale A View Post
    I think Enmity is fine.

    This game would be boring if all anyone had to do was bring a paladin and turn everything into a tank an spank dps race. Part of what makes this game more fun than other MMORPGs I have played is there is actually some strategy involved and other party members actually become targets.
    So Dale A thinks the Enmity system is okay and he enjoys not being able to use melee DDs and PLDs in the same party effectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale B View Post
    I think the real problem with Paladins is our most effective job ability for protecting party members who generate a lot of enmity - cover - is horribly designed. Trying to use it is a pain in the @$$. It should be like on other Final Fantasy games where it causes the Paladin to automatically leap in front of the member you are trying to protect or at the very least transfer the damage directly. Because making it a positional ability requires too much hassle and just isn't realistic.
    Dale B has lost so much faith in the Enmity system that he wishes the one ability in the game that effectively circumvents the entire enmity system was designed better so it could be used more. I hope he never meets that Dale A fellow. They'd surely have a heck of an argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale C View Post
    I also think paladin gear should have a lot more -spell interruption on it so it could play it's role as a heal/tank more effectively.
    Dale C doesn't know how Shield Mastery works, so he's probably a different person than Dale A or B.
    (6)

  7. #7
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    802
    Character
    Jeremi
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
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    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Byrth View Post
    Seconded.


    Also, I think triplets made this post:


    So Dale A thinks the Enmity system is okay and he enjoys not being able to use melee DDs and PLDs in the same party effectively..
    I use melee DDs all the time effectively. And yes, I like how this game's enmity system works. Even when I play as a DD - because it makes me think about what I should do rather just spam the same rotation over and over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byrth View Post
    Dale B has lost so much faith in the Enmity system that he wishes the one ability in the game that effectively circumvents the entire enmity system was designed better so it could be used more. I hope he never meets that Dale A fellow. They'd surely have a heck of an argument...

    Cover has a recast and only works on a single target. It doesn't allow the paladin to effectively circumvent the entire enmity system. Just bypass it for a little while for a single person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byrth View Post
    Seconded.
    Dale C doesn't know how Shield Mastery works, so he's probably a different person than Dale A or B.
    I'm aware blocking prevents spell interruption if that's what you mean. But that's not good enough in my opinion. I believe the Paladin should have very high -spell interruption so he can get spells off even when a block does not occur. This is especially true against multiple mobs or really fast-hitting ones.

    We just disagree bryth. There is no need to try and get sarcastic about it.
    (0)
    Last edited by Dale; 11-03-2014 at 11:15 AM.

  8. #8
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Jeremi
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    Quetzalcoatl
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    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthar View Post
    Enmity is not fine. The paladin is abe to hold hate for a few seconds, at most, before the dd's cap hate with massive damage, then hate bounces around like a kid on coffee. Even with perfect gear the paladin cannot hold hate. It's ridiculous and needs to be fixed.
    I like this. It adds more strategy to the combat and is an incentive for a damage dealers to play more carefully. So I think hate should bounce around - especially when massive damage is being done.
    (1)
    Last edited by Dale; 11-03-2014 at 08:31 AM.

  9. #9
    Player Malthar's Avatar
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    Malthar
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    Shiva
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    BST Lv 99
    There is no strategy when enmity is invariably capped. Unless you think the DD's should sit on the side and watch the pld fight. That's the only way your system will work.
    (2)

  10. #10
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Jeremi
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
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    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthar View Post
    There is no strategy when enmity is invariably capped. Unless you think the DD's should sit on the side and watch the pld fight. That's the only way your system will work.
    In my experience: when the DD takes damage their enmity will decrease and no longer be capped. That's why I think it adds strategy to the combat. If the DD continues to pump out damage even after they attract the monster's attention to remain high on the enmity list they only have themselves to blame if they die.

    That's why I like the system. It makes combat dangerous for damage dealers like I believe it should be. I've always preferred gameplay that rewards intelligent decision-making and respect for your opponent rather one that's all about spamming rotations so you can maximize damage on some silly chart.
    (2)

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