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  1. #21
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Character
    Jeremi
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
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    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Byrth View Post
    I'm super glad you've found melee that can defy game mechanics and avoid tanking, Dale.

    Spoiler alert, they don't. They take hate from you regularly and survive it.

    Games where the tank always has threat gets boring to me and I like it when DDs have to play smart to survive and learn to control their enmity. And this can be done in the current system. Because I play with DDs every day who manage to do it.

    And I already said DDs take hate regularly from me and survive it. So there is really no spoiler alert there.
    (1)
    Last edited by Dale; 11-06-2014 at 02:41 AM.

  2. #22
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    802
    Character
    Jeremi
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
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    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthar View Post
    I'm pretty sure he's mistaking this game for another, Byrth. Either that or he's off his meds. I'm leaning more towards "off his meds" because he does not accept rational explanations, rather, choosing to stick with what he believes to be real.
    Or perhaps I'm not on medications and playing the same game - and you two are just playing with DDs who don't know how to hold back or control their enmity

    Because to me it is far more rational to believe my own eyes and experiences rather a forum post about it.
    (1)
    Last edited by Dale; 11-06-2014 at 02:40 AM.

  3. #23
    Player Mefuki's Avatar
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    Aug 2011
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    224
    Character
    Mefuki
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    BLU Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale View Post
    Games where the tank always has threat gets boring to me and I like it when DDs have to play smart to survive and learn to control their enmity. And this can be done in the current system. Because I play with DDs every day who manage to do it.

    And I already said DDs take hate regularly from me and survive it. So there is really no spoiler alert there.


    I think that's just it though: DD's aren't holding back or controlling enmity. They "take hate regularly from me and survive it."
    (0)
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5cfpeJGwi2KhQjNvCkk5Cg

  4. #24
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    802
    Character
    Jeremi
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
    Main Class
    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Mefuki View Post
    I think that's just it though: DD's aren't holding back or controlling enmity. They "take hate regularly from me and survive it."
    I think you are misunderstand what I'm trying to say.

    When I say hold back or control enmity I don't mean they always avoid threat and never take hits. That's one of the reasons I like this game's enmity system. Because DDs do pull threat and do take damage. I think it makes the combat more interesting.

    What I mean when I say they hold back or control their enmity is they control their damage to the point they don't die. In other words - they are cautious enough not to bite off more than they can chew and work in sync with the tank rather then trying to compete with them for enmity. Which is usually done to show off or something I find - and why I think death is an appropriate outcome in a situation like that.
    (1)
    Last edited by Dale; 11-06-2014 at 07:51 AM.

  5. #25
    Player Byrth's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    2,172
    Character
    Byrth
    World
    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    Yeah, you have to ask yourself why you bother using a paladin in those fights when your DDs can survive regularly taking hate (known in some circles as tanking).

    The answer is that some people design their parties under the assumption that their DDs will (probably) die at least once per fight and they bring a Paladin as insurance in case all their DDs die and they need to hold the monster until a party member unweakens. So the Paladin is effectively only tanking the monster to keep it from killing the mages. Sometimes groups like this do manage to win without deaths, but it's far from normal because the healers become preoccupied with keeping the Paladin (the most durable job in the party) alive at the expense of the DDs. It ends up being a sloppy death fest more times than not, but I'm not going to deny that the strategy also can generally beat lower tier BCNMs. That doesn't validate the Enmity system, though.
    (2)

  6. #26
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    802
    Character
    Jeremi
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
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    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Byrth View Post
    Yeah, you have to ask yourself why you bother using a paladin in those fights when your DDs can survive regularly taking hate (known in some circles as tanking).

    The answer is that some people design their parties under the assumption that their DDs will (probably) die at least once per fight and they bring a Paladin as insurance in case all their DDs die and they need to hold the monster until a party member unweakens. So the Paladin is effectively only tanking the monster to keep it from killing the mages. Sometimes groups like this do manage to win without deaths, but it's far from normal because the healers become preoccupied with keeping the Paladin (the most durable job in the party) alive at the expense of the DDs. It ends up being a sloppy death fest more times than not, but I'm not going to deny that the strategy also can generally beat lower tier BCNMs. That doesn't validate the Enmity system, though.
    I understand your point. But even on difficult tier battlefields I find the enmity system works well. If the DD dies that's probably because they busted off a weapon skill without being prepared for the consequences. And I like that. It makes the combat more strategic and dangerous rather the tank just offering a blanket safety net for others to go crazy.

    Also to add some perspective - I've always been of the belief that all melee jobs should be able to tank. I don't think any content should require a paladin. And if a samurai/monk or warrior etc. has the gear and the support available to them to live through the battle and tank while doing lots of damage I see no problem with this.

    What makes a paladin good in my opinion is their defense and ability to live through damage without nearly as much support. For example: I've done difficult tier battlefields without any mages or healing support. And that's something a monk or samurai tank would never be able to pull off. So Paladin does have advantages. But in a group make up that is rife with tons of support and healing power you are probably correct and a Paladin wouldn't be the most efficient choice. But I don't think that is a flaw in the system. It just allows for other melee jobs to tank as well - though at the expense of needing a lot more support to do it.
    (0)
    Last edited by Dale; 11-06-2014 at 06:40 AM.

  7. #27
    Player Selindrile's Avatar
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    Jan 2012
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    Character
    Selindrile
    World
    Asura
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    BLU Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale View Post
    I like it when DDs have to play smart to survive and learn to control their enmity. And this can be done in the current system. Because I play with DDs every day who manage to do it.
    How? Once you do 28k damage your Enmity is capped according to Byrth (and arguing math against Byrth is a lost cause unless you're one of a select few) here are a few choice numbers using the math he laid out to see if such a thing would be possible.

    Turning their back to the mob for 5 seconds? - This means you can do 277 damage before you recap enmity, which is less than one attack round.

    Turning their back to the mob for 30 seconds? - This means you can do 1666 damage before you recap enmity, which is less than one WS.

    Trick Attack? - That's nice and all that it lets the THF get away without generating enmity for that one WS, but it doesn't actually provide anything to the PLD, as he's generally enmity capped anyway.

    Jumps? - Generally in these strategies people are /Nin to avoid large TP moves, which casting utsusemi also generates more enmity than the killing of its' shadows relieves.

    Decoy Shot - This is a real solution, because with -20 Enmity and Decoy up, normal shots don't generate any enmity, you're staying under the VE from the occasional WS and with relic Gun/Bow they're intentionally low-VE options, making this the reason you see Pld+Rng parties.

    How exactly are your non-Rng DDs "controlling their enmity" (which, if they're taking hate from you regularly, you can't really say they are) and still managing to kill the monster within the time limit, it's not really possible, you're better off having your melees just hit their hybrid DT set whenever the mob is spinning or shadows are down and not bringing a Pld at all if you want to go the melee route, but there is also as Byrth said taking a Pld to hold the mob if the DD happen to all die at once, it's not exactly elegant, but it does work, at least up to D on most fights, from personal experience.
    (2)

  8. #28
    Player Dale's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Jeremi
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
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    PLD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Selindrile View Post
    How? Once you do 28k damage your Enmity is capped according to Byrth (and arguing math against Byrth is a lost cause unless you're one of a select few) here are a few choice numbers using the math he laid out to see if such a thing would be possible.
    .
    I'm not sure what to tell you Selindrile.

    I did 3 battlefields yesterday with all melee DDs. No one died - and they pulled threat off of me several times through-out every single one of them. Yet they were still able to control their threat well enough that I was able to get hate back before any of them died.

    I don't know the specifics of how they do it because I don't play their jobs for them. But I have played with other melee DDs who are quite the opposite and pull threat off me and keep it the entire fight no matter what I do. And they usually end up dying or draining my MP dry as a result. So it has to do something with their style of play rather just some massive flaw with the enmity system.

    And just because a DD takes threat from me regularly I don't think that means they aren't controlling their threat. As I mentioned earlier, I believe all melee jobs are entitled to do some tanking. I've always disliked combat systems where one player - the tank - almost always has threat.

    Combat is more interesting to me when the action is spread around. It also gives increased relevance to the defensive abilities a lot of jobs that are considered melee DDs have. So for example: I see no problem with a Samurai pulling threat on purpose so he/she can tank the mob for awhile and use up some of their defense abilities. I even try to encourage it so long as they know when to let up so I can get it back.
    (0)
    Last edited by Dale; 11-08-2014 at 06:22 AM.

  9. #29
    Player Selindrile's Avatar
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    Jan 2012
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    Character
    Selindrile
    World
    Asura
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    BLU Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Dale View Post
    I don't know the specifics of how they do it because I don't play their jobs for them. But I have played with other melee DDs who are quite the opposite and pull threat off me and keep it the entire fight no matter what I do.
    I know exactly how successful DDs are successful, because I've cleared most most battlefields on D without a tank (haven't done Return To Delkfutt's yet without Pld, though I hear it's very doable with Nins, haven't tried that myself), simply bouncing hate between melee DDs efficiently, a problem is, there's absolutely no reason to do this (on most fights) if you have Rngs, and it really limits subjob options in these scenarios making for very repetitive fights. And even if you do bring melee, you limit yourselves generally to the more survivable ones who fight in hybrid sets pretty often.

    Smart DDs hit appropriate DT sets when they're going to get hit, and turn their back when shadows (or whatever else they're using to mitigate damage efficiently) are down, that's controlling their damage taken, and WHEN they have enmity, but that's -NOT- controlling their enmity overall, they have just as much as you do, you simply have hate because you did the -LAST- thing, the enmity system is really easy to understand, if you can't explain some bit of special technomagic that these people have access to that others don't the more likely thing is that you're just mischaracterizing what exactly the good DD are doing rather than the bad ones.
    (1)
    Last edited by Selindrile; 11-08-2014 at 08:31 AM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale View Post
    I don't know the specifics of how they do it because I don't play their jobs for them. But I have played with other melee DDs who are quite the opposite and pull threat off me and keep it the entire fight no matter what I do. And they usually end up dying or draining my MP dry as a result. So it has to do something with their style of play rather just some massive flaw with the enmity system.
    Optimizing DD output isn't a new fangled idea among MMOs. What you're describing above is the difference between someone who does (or at least more so) compared to someone that doesn't. As far as draining your MP or them dying, that's kinda the point we're at. MP refresh is ridiculous. Healing output is ridiculous. Outside of insta-gib TP moves or status effects rampaging your ability to keep someone alive, there's very little in the game anymore that carries a threat of death, outside of a bad healer.

    If you feel that someone doing bad DD so that you can sorta pseudo maintain hate and tank is a workable and interesting system, then by all means. It's already been said multiple times that you can clear content that way, but that doesn't exactly give a reasonable use to the tank jobs.
    (1)
    7/10/14

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