Formless Strikes Overpowered

[Demon6324236]

Wait... But you just said the exact opposite in the bold...
"it's become too used because the devs make content that practically requires it, but it's not the fault of the devs for making that content"???
>_>

Delve does not require a MNK with formless, Delve requires magic damage. There are many jobs which can fulfill this role. Take out a DD and put in a BLM give them Ballad and MAB Rolls, you will see them throwing down great nukes, Mata can be killed by SCHs, GEOs, RDM, and BLM, you should have 6 jobs at very least capable of throwing nukes at him for capped DMG with spells on a 10 second recast timer or lower, which should make him a joke, that's 23 nukes, split between 6 people. The thing is that no one takes a BLM, why? MNK can do it, why bother?

REM + REM WS = always better...
Just from what I've seen in my drg friends with their iLv spears... Drakesbane has been outperforming Stardiver constantly... Or at least it has every single time I have ever seen them use it.

Question is, what are they fighting, if the target has less DEF than their attack by a large enough amount, that's why. Drakes will win most of the time if the target has quite a bit of DEF lower, which is why as an Upu DRG I always use Drakes in anything outside of Adoulin, my attack crushes everything DEF in old content.

And you're right, the job isn't broken because of Delve... it's just that Delve severely caters to demanding MNKs due to the design of the NMs.
Alexander's PD was never really overpowered....
But the Devs kept making content that practically demanded its use.
They realized it, so they neutered PD to make it so they wouldn't make content that then relied on PD to be defeated...
And I think it's basically the same thing here: Delve has been made so that MNKs with Formless is the PD of yesteryear.
Though I don't think FS is as potent as PD...
I think to "fix" this... all they have to do is program NMs in the other 3-4 fractures to not rely on these MDT/PDT shenanigans that the current ones do.

I think its worse than PD really. PD was a 1 shot thing, once per event, Formless can be used multiple times and reset by CORs multiple times if need by, once by an ability with what I think is like a 20min recast, and the other is their SP. PD was at least a 1 shot wonder, you popped it then you just stunned. So far as making NMs that do not rely on PDT/MDT things, its not easy to come up with a gimmick to make the NM unique which does not rely on such a thing, or at least I have a hard time coming up with them.

[FaeQueenCory]

Delve does not require a MNK with formless, Delve requires magic damage. There are many jobs which can fulfill this role. Take out a DD and put in a BLM give them Ballad and MAB Rolls, you will see them throwing down great nukes, Mata can be killed by SCHs, GEOs, RDM, and BLM, you should have 6 jobs at very least capable of throwing nukes at him for capped DMG with spells on a 10 second recast timer or lower, which should make him a joke, that's 23 nukes, split between 6 people. The thing is that no one takes a BLM, why? MNK can do it, why bother?

[...]

I think its worse than PD really. PD was a 1 shot thing, once per event, Formless can be used multiple times and reset by CORs multiple times if need by, once by an ability with what I think is like a 20min recast, and the other is their SP. PD was at least a 1 shot wonder, you popped it then you just stunned. So far as making NMs that do not rely on PDT/MDT things, its not easy to come up with a gimmick to make the NM unique which does not rely on such a thing, or at least I have a hard time coming up with them.

Technically... PD could be reset as well. So that point is irrelevant.
But I think it's potency is greater.
Sure, it's a 1shot... but Formless doesn't have the same complete shutdown that PD does did.... it at least requires SOME talent to use effectively.
But this is really apple and oranges when we're talking about potency...

But when it comes to design of the content I think it's the same thing:
With PD: "well the players have PD.... so... they can just use that"
with FS: "well... they have MNKs with Oats... so they can just use that"

I think the problem with "why not BLM" is that up to this point... BLM could only have achieved a 117/8 weapon.
(not to mention that SCH or RDM can do the same as BLM... it's just easier on players to make the MNKs do the magic dmg to let the SCHs and RDMs focus on stunning... though I guess GEOs could do it too... after poopin luopons.)
Now with REMs... maybe we'll see more variance... But I don't really think so.
Delve is a very... exclusive endgame... It's one of the things that I though was very good design for VW: all jobs have a place. Even if it's only one slot... everyone can do it equally.
And it's exclusivity is entirely its design, just as you pointed out: "The thing is that no one takes a BLM, why? MNK can do it, why bother?" And the only thing they are doing other than that is poking things until it's dead, they can handle one more thing.
(plus MNK is one of the few that had 119 capabilities.)

Hopefully... with the advent of 119 AF sets... coupled with the 119 REMs...
Maybe Delve will start to be more inclusive...

Remember, it's not JUST that MNKs have formless... it's that they also have a 119 weapon and are a DD.

[Peldin]

Just thought I'd point out to you guys so you can actually argue about Formless correctly.

It's not magical damage. It's non-physical damage. There is a difference. Formless is a great ability, not because it's overpowered, but because it gives monks more versatility.

As others have already said here, it's not the ability that makes monk too strong. It's the content.

Complaining about Formless in Delve is like complaining about Mighty Strikes in a zone where your 2 hour abilities were constantly reset.