Belligerency (new PvP): will it catch on? Suggestions

[Edyth]

I am dying to test my strength as a monipulator against a party of adventurers. I've already seen that I can kill a level 60 BLU as a 52 Wamoura effortlessly in less than 60 seconds. So I need entire parties to come at me.

I know this is only day 1, but here are some concerns:

1. Roaming old zones with a level cap on to fight monipulators is extremely unappealing for gladiators. There's aggro, and the zones are freaking huge.
   
   
2. Right now, gladiators have 0 prestige, and with no initial prestige, that means they have to vanquish monipulators that have nothing to gain from the battle, or they have to grind old monsters with a level cap on. Yuck. Some base prestige would be nice to get people started.
   
   
3. The monstrosity search function doesn't work right. It just gives us a number. No names, and searching the whole world sometimes turns up more than the total participants in the three areas, so I guess Feretory results are being added secretly? We can't contact people easily to set up battles. This ties into my last point.
   
   
4. The 3 zones are huge. Setting up the battles via chat is a must for this reason. It'd be nice if we could just go around and fight people. Can we have some medium-small belligerency-only zones? Like a Monster Arena or a Battle Pit zone that exists solely for Belligerency.

[FaeQueenCory]

Can we have some medium-small belligerency-only zones? Like a Monster Arena or a Battle Pit zone that exists solely for Belligerency.

That would be really cool!
Could even tie it into the Adoulin Rala Waterways Arena where RUN has their LB5. Since I think that has other instanced areas. (and it would fit with the flavor too!)

The main thing I don't like about the new system... (and why if they don't change it.. it'll just be lol!monipulator type thing) is that whole level syncing...
If they changed it so it works like the seasonal events' level sync where normal mobs don't aggro you...
Or if they just didn't have level syncing at all... (this is the one that I'd prefer personally)
Then it could be more true to the idea of "bwahaha now I is a mob... gonna sneak up on that dude and totes kill him!"

Gaining xp as a mob is super easy, or so I am told...
And there have been multiple times that I have been out and about doing a magian trial or farming or something where I suddenly run into a manipulator...
It would have been really cool to have just been able to suddenly attack or get attacked by said other player... without having to be gimped due to not having ideal lv60 gear. (and with this AF1 update... who is even gonna have THAT to fall on for lv60 level syncs?)

But as it stands right now... I have no desire to gimp myself just to PVP a person playing a mob. (even more so now that it is basically a NM from your 52 Wamoura, Edyth)
The prestige imo isn't that big of a deal... it's basically just manipulator conquest points...
The way this was talked about.... made it seem really organic... but the way it's been implemented... it's like a coliseum fight... but with all the normal mobs there too...
Basically it's too skewed in the mob's favor atm.

[darkhorror]

I hope they are just trying to get it right and make adjustments before they add some 99 or uncapped areas and arenas.

Players shouldn't expect to be able to do much of anything to the monsters solo. It should be more of an alliance or party fighting a monster.

[FaeQueenCory]

I hope they are just trying to get it right and make adjustments before they add some 99 or uncapped areas and arenas.

Players shouldn't expect to be able to do much of anything to the monsters solo. It should be more of an alliance or party fighting a monster.

I dunno... I kinda disagree about the solo part.
I like the idea of the monster!players being always NM...
But one of the things that I have always enjoyed about this game is coming back to certain areas and soloing a NM.
Not because it's easy.
But the ones I am talking about are the "fun" difficult fights to solo.
Duoing the fish in RUN's AF quests is probably the most fun I've had with Adoulin content... It was challenging... it was nailbiting at times... and coming close to wiping and then pulling through is a nice feeling for me.
So I guess that's kinda what I want from the mon!player v player fighting... (hence why the arena thing Edyth suggested is so appealing to me)

[Arkitan]

Setting it in Adoulin only zones wouldnt be that great for those who dont have the seekers expansion and that play on PS2. It would be much better to have a non seekers area so everyone can enjoy it!

[Camate]

Greetings,

Thanks for the feedback thus far! We're glad to see everyone testing their might and braving life as a monipulator.
Below is a comment from Monstrosity lead Ryota Iwagami regarding the new additions and adjustments to Monstrosity that addresses some of your comments.

Hello,

Thank you for all the feedback and requests.

With the monipulator vs. adventurer content that was recently implemented we will of course be making adjustments moving forward.

I’d like to answer some of the questions and requests we’ve been receiving.

Roaming old zones with a level cap on to fight monipulators is extremely unappealing for gladiators. There's aggro, and the zones are freaking huge.

We’ve set the system up so when you enter belligerency you accept the status with the feeling that it’s time to fight! With that said, if there are times where you want to stop belligerency in the respective area and do something else, we ask that you withdraw from belligerency. I understand that it’s inconvenient to return if you’ve forgotten to withdraw from belligerency, so I’m thinking it would be good to have an item that returns you to the three nations or a system where you can turn the belligerency status on and off outside of belligerency areas.

Also, in regards to concerns about whether infamy will still be received if a gladiator leaves a party when fighting, infamy is added and calculated when each monster is defeated for each person, so you’ll still be able to receive the infamy up until the point the person leaves.

There are a lot of warrior/black mage species, and they are hard to use.

Originally, Monstrosity was created with the idea of replicating the original monsters, and the current situation is the way it is because there were a lot of monsters with a warrior main job and black mage support job. One reason why we did this was so you could discover what jobs monsters are. However, we are thinking that it might be better to make adjustments to make it more interesting, even though it is a sort of lie, by allowing more freedom for monster jobs.

On a related note, for the sub-species of monsters as well, we wanted players to be able to choose based on the looks that they prefer, and we set it so that there were basically no differences to the original monster other than a different graphic similar to a player 2 color difference that you see in fighting games. For certain monsters, however, such as rabbits, the sub-species have a different job than the original monster, but we are thinking it would be best to add variations to sub-species much like what we have for rabbits even if it is a lie so that it is more interesting to play. While the job of the monster that you really like may change, we would like to look into changing the jobs up, so we’d definitely like to hear back on how you feel about this.

Right now, gladiators have 0 prestige, and with no initial prestige, that means they have to vanquish monipulators that have nothing to gain from the battle, or they have to grind old monsters with a level cap on. Yuck. Some base prestige would be nice to get people started.

We are looking into the below adjustments to make it so there are benefits for both sides when winning while reducing the risks for the monipulators.

• When defeating your opponent, the amount of points that can be stolen will cap at double the amount of points you currently have and 20% of the points your opponent has.
  
• Make it possible to exchange one merit point for 4000 prestige once a day. If the amount you exchange goes over 4000, the amount you receive will only be the amount until you hit the 4000 cap.

With these adjustments, the amount of points your opponent can steal will be fewer when you don’t have that many points, and defeating opponents will yield larger returns, so you can fight while having a high number of points.

The reason why we made the risk high for when you are defeated was to make it so you all fight seriously; however, I understand it’s not desirable if it’s making it hard to participate in this content, so we would like to make adjustment so that it is much easier to participate.

Thank you.

[Mefuki]

While the job of the monster that you really like may change, we would like to look into changing the jobs up, so we’d definitely like to hear back on how you feel about this.

I'd like to see this. I'd like to see moving forward more job coverage in general. Ninjas, Scholars, Beastmasters, etc. Speaking of BST, I'm reminded now. I noticed that almost every monipulator is still missing one of their TP moves like Rafflesia is missing Floral Bouquet, Gnole missing Call of The Moon, Peistes missing Grim Glower, etc etc. Can we expect to unlock these via spending large amounts of Infamy like we have to to unlock certain sub-species or perhaps from quests of some sort? Or are they going to be available at level 99, perhaps?

Also, as NM/HNMs, can we expect to gain the ability to have access to some of the quirks that made NMs so interesting and sometimes challenging in the first place? Things like En-enfeeble effects, auras, withdrawing into shells (similar to Aspidochelone), absorbing certain elements to heal and other traits that NMs have that make them difficult/tactically interesting (just look to other NM's you've made in the past for more examples).

I think between this and giving us more interesting job combinations will make fighting as a monster more appealing and will make for some cool strategic value, particularly when MON Vs. MON gets released and/or when we start fighting uncapped.

Make it possible to exchange one merit point for 4000 prestige once a day. If the amount you exchange goes over 4000, the amount you receive will only be the amount until you hit the 4000 cap.

My question here is what do Monipulators have to gain from accumulating and storing their Infamy? Can 4000 Infamy also be exchanged for 1 merit point once a day? Furthermore, can it be exchanged for the gear that currently is only avalible by buying it with Prestige?

[FaeQueenCory]

My question here is what do Monipulators have to gain from accumulating and storing their Infamy? Can 4000 Infamy also be exchanged for 1 merit point once a day? Furthermore, can it be exchanged for the gear that currently is only avalible by buying it with Prestige?

Actually... Having a infamy/prestige<>merit pt exchange system...
Could give rise to an alternative to Abyburn merit building...
Not really... but it's an interesting situation.

[Edyth]

To Mufuki: What do you mean? Infamy is used to purchase instincts and monsters, and HNM forms require you to spend over 10,000 at once. If you have 10,000 infamy, you can't gain anymore unless you do belligerancy, so all infamy gained over 10,000 is significant. If you don't have anything to spend your infamy on, level more species.

To the developers:
One thing I've wondered about is this:

What happens if a gladiator chickens out and casts warp right before he dies? Similarly, what if a monipulator with enhanced movement speed like raptors, tigers, or bugards, were to just dart off before dying? Disabling certain spells when claimed as a gladiator would help, or inflicting terror on participants who try to run (like Chaos's Judgment immobilizes cowards in Dissidia FF). Right now, this is just my theorizing; I haven't experienced this situation.

Also, I think the new Monstrosity music is kind of cool, but I wish it were battle/belligerency only. I'd like the Ronfaure, Gustaberg, or Altepa field music to play when I'm not fighting. Electric guitars and Gustaberg just don't go together


And lastly,

Mr. Iwagami, you are my hero for developing monstrosity. I know this PvP may be difficult to balance at first, but you have a lot of supporters and fans. You're the guy who's let lifelong Final Fantasy fans play as and level up cactuars, malboros, and Cerberus in a main-series FF game, so I hope you know how much the community likes and appreciates what you've done, and we also appreciate your openness to suggestions.

[Mefuki]

I'd preemptively like to expand a bit on the fact that some TP moves are missing. If the reason for this is due to a system limitation or a balance issue, there are ways around both problems.

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In the case of the former, let's take for example Rafflesia's Soothing Aroma (AoE Charm). I hope that you try your best to figure out how to make moves like this apply to us as Rafflesia monipulators just as monsters have them. That said, I don't know what system limitations are unchangeable so assuming it's impossible to charm more than one target i.e. impossible for players to have more than one pet, consider what Charm does. It stops opponents attacks from being directed at you and makes them fight for you. So, what you could do is attempt to replicate it's effects. So in this example, if AoE Charm is impossible, instead of just saying, "It can't be done. We can't give you that move.", change it's effects to: Charms casters target but also AoE large ATK Down + Amnesia + Mute with a large ATK Boost for the user commensurate with the number of targets hit. The base duration of the effects, of course, being equal to the Rafflesia mob's Charm duration.

There you go, you just circumvented a system limitation while still delivering a very similar effect. The same can be done with any TP move that has a seemingly insurmountable effect.

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If it's the latter, monster balance, steps can be taken to not only include seemingly overpowered TP moves and combinations but can actually enrich the battle system via various counters. Now, I recently did some very quick testing on Elasmoth and pairing him up with Souleater resulted in absolutely massive amounts of damage. As it stands now, I'm concerned that when it comes to the future MON Vs. MON fights, or just about every PVP fight, everyone will just say, "I'll just use Elasmoth for everything. It's the win button." However, instead of just applying straight penalties to Souleater thereby making it all but useless, you can use monsters themselves to balance player choices. For example, if Sibilus has Oppressive Gaze suddenly you've now got a direct counter to this tactic with Elasmoth and now players start thinking to themselves, "I can't always rely on Elasmoth because there might be a Sibilus out there. Maybe I should try bringing a mage monster to counter the Sibilus.", and the cycle continues kind of like that.

Another issue came to my attention in the form of Fatal Scream (AoE Doom). Can't be implemented due to it's potent effects? Make adjustments to the way we're able to use it. For example, in order to circumvent players simply gaining 300% TP, sneaking up to an opponent and just immediately dooming everyone in range, adjust it's effects so this doom only gets applied to monsters that are under the effects of, say for the sake of example, Blind II. This has an intriguing effect on balance. Now, not only will the opponent receive a "warning" that Fatal Scream is coming, it also allows seldom used magic/skills to have a place AND, best of all, mind games can begin between players, which can be an important part of PvP. Because, of course, just because you cast Blind II doesn't necessary mean you have to use Fatal Scream but your opponent is now on his toes and you may be able to deceive him into a trap.
Similar adjustments can be made to moves that are deemed too powerful.

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Too long; Didn't read: Please, Mr. Iwagami, don't let system limitations or perceived overpowered TP moves/unique NM tactics (Auras, an Antlion's "Pit Ambush" etc) get in the way of a potentially deep and interesting system. There are ways around both problems.

I just want you to know that it was Monstrosity that brought me back to the game when I stopped playing and it's my absolute favourite part of it. With the proper care and considerations, this can be a really cool system and I truly hope that, whether you see this post via translator or not (though I really hope you do), that you consider the great deal of potential this battle system has to offer. Thank you!