FFXI R/M/E Thoughts:

[Alpheus]

I have to point out that we only assume that they will be given iLvs.
The only actual word on it was that they would have their damage boosted to comparable levels of Delve weapons.

And as such, not all the 119 weapons either. Only Mythics will have that boost to being 119 level in damage.
Relics and Empys will only receive a boost to match the augmented delve weapon drops: ie 113.
And I guess that matches Skirmish+1s as well.

But all we can say at the moment is that they will have the damage of these weapons... Hopefully they will actually have iLvs... because just having the dmg will still make them crap.

And I know ppl want their Relics and Empys to be the same tier as Mythic and Delve Mega Boss drops.... but I have to agree with Matsui's stated tiering.

Can you point me in the direction where Matsui says that? Genuinely curious.

[Spectreman]

If R/M/E were in terms of dmg/skill between 113 and 119 they could be still powerful and asked again to endgame events. Some of them have really nice abilities that i believe it would outclass some 119 weapons.

If they just make them 119 then all new content will be trashed in favor of old content. That wouldn't make any sense for a game genre that should always be looking ahead and not backwards.

[Demon6324236]

If R/M/E were in terms of dmg/skill between 113 and 119 they could be still powerful and asked again to endgame events. Some of them have really nice abilities that i believe it would outclass some 119 weapons.

Except that besides Relics, none of them are possibly common enough to ask for them only.

Empyrean weapons have the giant cock-block that is Heavy Metal Plates, something that has always been a pain to get, and now is near impossible, same with Rift-Cinder/Dross which comes after. So we can rule those out from being common.

Mythics, well that speaks for itself, most people are to daunted by the massive effort it takes to make one for them to even attempt it, it takes a minimum of 5 months no matter what, but past that, with the 30k Alexandrite and such, they have never been common, and likely never will.

That rules out 2 of the 3 types of weapons from being common, since they all have to be 99 to upgrade.

Relics, are the most easily 99'd weapon type of the 3, Dynamis can be done daily, 2 hours a day is all it takes, and around 18,000 currency in total to make a weapon, then probably around 10~12 hours depending on trials, and 5 marrows, as well as 2 extra Dynamis runs, is all it takes to finish a Relic. By compare to the others, its much easier. Also many people have them already, probably around half are 99, the other half can get 99 easily seeing as ADL is a cake walk now to any group with Adoulin level gear(I killed ADL with a WHM, DRK, MNK, PLD, and Dualboxed BRD) so that wouldn't be to hard.



In the end, if anything, at worst you are looking at Relic only shouts, but honestly, with how many RME owners left the game due to their being outdated, I think what you are really going to see is shouts for people with Empyrean WSs for certain jobs. Some like DRG or DRK have terrible Empyrean WSs by compare to Merit, however, jobs like WAR, MNK, or SAM, will probably be requested to have the Empyrean WS, and that by itself is not to bad, only camping the NMs for the first few is, if they cut that out or you have help with it, it will make the whole process easy.

If they just make them 119 then all new content will be trashed in favor of old content. That wouldn't make any sense for a game genre that should always be looking ahead and not backwards.

Oh look, its the non-nonsensical argument again, about how without weapon progression all progression is halted and no one would do new content.

I understand where this comes from I suppose, I mean, look at Skirmish, perfect example of why it makes sense, and why its wrong. How many people did Skirmish for weapons when that was the only reward from it? Well, not many, even after the changes, not many people did it, it was just weapons. On the other end of it, look at Skirmish now, it drops armor & weapons, however, how many people actually go out and get the weapons from Skirmish? The weapons are not bad, but they are not the best, the main reason people do Skirmish isn't for those weapons, its the armor. Its just another case of the game not needing weapon progression for people to do it really.

Before SoA, Neo-Nyzul Isle had no weapons, nor Salvage II, nor Neo-Limbus, Odin II had weapons, but they weren't all to popular besides the Polearm for DRG which didn't see much use anyways. My point is, it worked, and people still did new content all the time, the only time people didn't is when the reward was so focused on weapons that nearly no gear, or no good gear, was added. When you do that, of course it doesn't turn out well, but you don't have to add weapons with the type of progression that the game had before all that, because with 1 set of weapons on the top you can set a clear goal for everyone, while making side-grade weapons that people can get till they have the ability to obtain one.

[sc4500]

They just need have a NPC were you take one of the R/M/E to and If got a delve weapon, The npc combines them together, get +.5damage for Empy, get +1 damage for Relic, Get +1.5 damage for Mythic, Then you can you will get. To choose what the weapon looks like. From a list of 5 appearances , and then you get to choose, if want a special delve ws . That all base delve weapons will have , or the the weapons skills from the R/M/E weapon. This way you will not need to have everyone shout need maxed weapons. Then each time they add more powerful weapons they can also just keep the same npc that increases that combo up a little.

[Anjou]

They just need have a NPC were you take one of the R/M/E to and If got a delve weapon, The npc combines them together, get +.5damage for Empy, get +1 damage for Relic, Get +1.5 damage for Mythic, Then you can you will get. To choose what the weapon looks like. From a list of 5 appearances , and then you get to choose, if want a special delve ws . That all base delve weapons will have , or the the weapons skills from the R/M/E weapon. This way you will not need to have everyone shout need maxed weapons. Then each time they add more powerful weapons they can also just keep the same npc that increases that combo up a little.

.......Wut?

[Shaiera]

In general, until they make an official announcement, saying, “This is what we’re doing to R/M/E; these are the stat. increases.”, I don’t think saying what they should/shouldn’t do is going to make a big impact since they’ve stated we have a plan now, and it launches sometime in November.

What I’m confused with is a lot of these posts popping up saying, “Well I think Emp should be made a bit better than Relic, I think it’s harder to get”, or the reverse saying, “Well I think Relic should be made a bit better than Emp, I think it’s harder to get.” All these weapons - R/M/E currently are useless when compared to the SoA content weapons, even the most gimp weapons from SoA.

R/M/E were all relatively equal, in general; yes there were some exceptions, but over all equal to the other weapons of the same type. My biggest concern is having them be useful at all; lets start with that. I say for now just bring them all up together, how they were before (SoA - When shit hit the fan.). All these posts about Emp should, Relic should, Mythic should are annoying; it’s not about making whatever weapon you decided to go for being the best or others being made better because you think it’s hard to get; quite frankly, to be blunt, most of us don’t give a shit. Let’s start with having them being useful at all, you can’t even use them in any SoA end-game, if you can call it that, they need to be useable first. After they’re usable and even able to be considered viable weapon options, then by all means; open your own thread about how your weapons needs to be the best because you’re the one that earned it.

I do really hope whatever they have planned in November Update is worth the wait; some of my friends say, “I’ll come back when they fix R/M/E.” Others are saying, “Naw even if they fix R/M/E it’s too late, it’s been months, I’m moving onto something else.” I’ve noted that something else seems to end up being WoW and FFXIV, since they are so much alike. At any rate, I’m on board with the first half; fix R/M/E I’ll probably stay; keep neglecting it much longer, I too will be moving onto something else; most likely joining a lot of my other friends that quit FFXI, for the same reasons, losing so many months of achievement for weapons that destroy them in stats and take less than two weeks to obtain being probably the top of the list reason. If R/M/E are anything less than these weapons, they will have no point; the time/Gil invested into making any of them will be way to great to matter in the long run. So an update not bring them above would be pointless. I hope they have the common sense to realize that people will take the easiest path of least resistance; which means unless R/M/E are better, even by only 3%, there will be no one willing to work them up, which would make this update very pointless…

[FaeQueenCory]

Can you point me in the direction where Matsui says that? Genuinely curious.

Honestly.... I would really love to.... but it was FOREVER ago.
And since I am not crazy... I never thought it would be buried in the forums long enough to be saved...
Who knew that that would be the only word about the update for half a year.... T_T

But basically: Matsui used the one-handed swords for comparisons.
Burtang was updated to be 1dmg less than Buramenkah. (thusly, 119 level)
And Excalibur and Almace were a sizeable drop of dmg below them... (I wanna say 20pts... but it might have been as high as -30dmg...) so that's basically equivalent to Halahuinic... but slightly better. So really it's possible (even probable) to put them at 115ish instead of 113. I just used the second best swords as an iLv comparrison.

Matsui only gave #dmg and delay... this was like a month before the whole stick fake skill on stuff update... so... yeah.
But I remember that Burtang was -1dmg from Buramenkah, and Excalibur and Almace were a tier lower.

The iLv association is my own doing. (though I feel that stating mythics will be 119 isn't any different than what Matsui said.)

Again, sorry I can't find the post exactly... it's been buried under a half-year's posts.

R/M/E were all relatively equal, in general;

Except not. Mythics have always been the largest reward for the largest time invested.
Relics and Empys are pretty much the same. Just different kinds of time sunk into them. (farming $ vs farming chunks of monsters)
But Mythics have pretty much 100% completion of ToAU as a starting point.

And Matsu HAS give us a statement.... but it was forever ago and only dealt with the base damage because it was before the fake skill update.
Yeah. THAT long ago.
Mythics will be equal to the Delve Mega Boss weapons.
Relics and Empys will be below them, but still viable.

[Demon6324236]

Honestly.... I would really love to.... but it was FOREVER ago.
And since I am not crazy... I never thought it would be buried in the forums long enough to be saved...
Who knew that that would be the only word about the update for half a year.... T_T

But basically: Matsui used the one-handed swords for comparisons.
Burtang was updated to be 1dmg less than Buramenkah. (thusly, 119 level)
And Excalibur and Almace were a sizeable drop of dmg below them... (I wanna say 20pts... but it might have been as high as -30dmg...) so that's basically equivalent to Halahuinic... but slightly better. So really it's possible (even probable) to put them at 115ish instead of 113. I just used the second best swords as an iLv comparrison.

Matsui only gave #dmg and delay... this was like a month before the whole stick fake skill on stuff update... so... yeah.
But I remember that Burtang was -1dmg from Buramenkah, and Excalibur and Almace were a tier lower.

The iLv association is my own doing. (though I feel that stating mythics will be 119 isn't any different than what Matsui said.)

Again, sorry I can't find the post exactly... it's been buried under a half-year's posts.


Except not. Mythics have always been the largest reward for the largest time invested.
Relics and Empys are pretty much the same. Just different kinds of time sunk into them. (farming $ vs farming chunks of monsters)
But Mythics have pretty much 100% completion of ToAU as a starting point.

And Matsu HAS give us a statement.... but it was forever ago and only dealt with the base damage because it was before the fake skill update.
Yeah. THAT long ago.
Mythics will be equal to the Delve Mega Boss weapons.
Relics and Empys will be below them, but still viable.

Firstly, Mythics used to be the weakest of the 3 for a few jobs, you needed to use horrible WSs and had to save up 300% TP just to get your best effects from it. Even after merit WSs, it wasn't always to great, many still suffered and sucked. Mythics have always been the hardest, but since Empyrean weapons came out, they were hardly the best for most jobs, only really PUP & DRG have always been best.

Excalibur

DMG: 73 Delay: 233 Attack+40 "Knights of Round" Additional effect: Damage varies with HP
↓
DMG: 121 Delay: 233 Attack+60 Accuracy+20 "Knights of Round" Additional effect: Damage varies with HP

Burtgang

DMG: 73 Delay: 264 Enmity+18 Physical damage taken -18% Reduces Enmity decrease when taking damage. "Atonement" Aftermath: Increases Acc./Atk./Occ. Attacks twice or thrice
↓
DMG: 131 Delay: 264 Attack+20 Accuracy+20 Enmity+18 Physical damage taken -18% Reduces Enmity decrease when taking damage. "Atonement" Aftermath: Increases Acc./Atk./Occ. Attacks twice or thrice

Almace

DMG: 70 Delay: 224 DEX+20 "Chant du Cygne" Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage
↓
DMG: 114 Delay: 224 Attack+20 Accuracy+20 DEX+20 "Chant du Cygne" Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage

This is the post your talking about, and no, the reason Burt is 10 DMG higher is it has 31 Delay more than Excalibur, that's it, a trade off. They are weaker than 119s in DMG but better cause of ODD, Attack, and Acc, so after the skill is added & such, RMEs should be better than 119 weapons because of ODD, but not in base DMG.

In either case, if this was your post to say its 113 R/Ms and 119 Empyreans, consider your claim/theory debunked, they never said that, and statistically its not accurate either since Bura would be 1 DMG lower than Burtgang, and only 9 higher than Excalibur, while Hala is a full 17 lower than Excalibur. In the end, its not really accurate to say they are 113, best estimate would be 117 really... but again, ODD puts them as best by these numbers.

[Afania]

Honestly.... I would really love to.... but it was FOREVER ago.
And since I am not crazy... I never thought it would be buried in the forums long enough to be saved...
Who knew that that would be the only word about the update for half a year.... T_T

But basically: Matsui used the one-handed swords for comparisons.
Burtang was updated to be 1dmg less than Buramenkah. (thusly, 119 level)
And Excalibur and Almace were a sizeable drop of dmg below them... (I wanna say 20pts... but it might have been as high as -30dmg...) so that's basically equivalent to Halahuinic... but slightly better. So really it's possible (even probable) to put them at 115ish instead of 113. I just used the second best swords as an iLv comparrison.

Matsui only gave #dmg and delay... this was like a month before the whole stick fake skill on stuff update... so... yeah.
But I remember that Burtang was -1dmg from Buramenkah, and Excalibur and Almace were a tier lower.

The iLv association is my own doing. (though I feel that stating mythics will be 119 isn't any different than what Matsui said.)

Again, sorry I can't find the post exactly... it's been buried under a half-year's posts.


Except not. Mythics have always been the largest reward for the largest time invested.
Relics and Empys are pretty much the same. Just different kinds of time sunk into them. (farming $ vs farming chunks of monsters)
But Mythics have pretty much 100% completion of ToAU as a starting point.

And Matsu HAS give us a statement.... but it was forever ago and only dealt with the base damage because it was before the fake skill update.
Yeah. THAT long ago.
Mythics will be equal to the Delve Mega Boss weapons.
Relics and Empys will be below them, but still viable.

I don't want Mythics to be equal to delve mega boss weapons and relics/empy inferior to Oat(which is a weapon you can get in 20 min~3hr, mind you), that'd be pretty dumb. RME should be a situationally useful weapon, but not required to complete any content.

[FaeQueenCory]

Firstly, Mythics used to be the weakest of the 3 for a few jobs, you needed to use horrible WSs and had to save up 300% TP just to get your best effects from it. Even after merit WSs, it wasn't always to great, many still suffered and sucked. Mythics have always been the hardest, but since Empyrean weapons came out, they were hardly the best for most jobs, only really PUP & DRG have always been best.

This is the post your talking about, and no, the reason Burt is 10 DMG higher is it has 31 Delay more than Excalibur, that's it, a trade off. They are weaker than 119s in DMG but better cause of ODD, Attack, and Acc, so after the skill is added & such, RMEs should be better than 119 weapons because of ODD, but not in base DMG.

In either case, if this was your post to say its 113 R/Ms and 119 Empyreans, consider your claim/theory debunked, they never said that, and statistically its not accurate either since Bura would be 1 DMG lower than Burtgang, and only 9 higher than Excalibur, while Hala is a full 17 lower than Excalibur. In the end, its not really accurate to say they are 113, best estimate would be 117 really... but again, ODD puts them as best by these numbers.

I think that's it. But back when that was, Burtang was only 1pt less than Buramenkah. And no iLv had all that fake skill and power adjustment. So... it's not a very good idea at what we are gonna get.. but it's the only word on this we have.

And it so long ago that my iLvs are just a rough guide. I never said they were the end-all-be-all. Just a rough estimate of what they will be like. And in all honesty... I only said 113 out of convenience. R/E will more likely be closer to 115-117 or even as high as 118.
But the fact remain that R/E will be slightly below M/Ds in pure damage... not taking into accound WS damage... because then REMs should out perform Delve Mega Boss drops due to the whole +30% WS damage.
But this is all conjecture until we have a better roadmap.


And as to mythics being situationally better.... the mage mythics pretty much are the best of the best because for what they do.
Relic staff is probably one of the crappiest of the REMs IMO.... a pure physical damage weapon with nothing that augments any of the abilities that the jobs that can wear it rely upon... Well... it's got that 8mp refresh thing... so... it's not 100% crap.
Even the Empy staff is 10000000x better... and all it does is give you a larger MP pool.
And for whm, Yagrush is still God. A whm with Tamaxchi and a Yagrush = king of whms.

So we can't even say that R/E > M for everyone... because mage jobs care more about magical augments than they do about phys DD.
But then, this is why it was always REMs at the top.
Because for a job-by-job look, one of the three is going to usually out perform the other.

Mythics are intended to be the best.... though for some of them that intent was... not realized to say the least.
Relics and Empys are low-delay-high-damage weapons, so for phys DDs, they excel.

If we REALLY must quibble over the iLv of R/Es.... then let's all agree on an arbitrary one. (115-117? 116? it's not 119)
Because as it stands right now.... we don't even know if they'll HAVE an iLv.
We want to believe they will.
We expect they will because that's just simple and good design.
But with no word.... and the simple fact that we are even talking about them having to be upgraded to iLvs in the first place... instead of it being a day-1-patch type thing....
Anything is up in the air.

Pray to Altana that they have iLvs... because we just don't know at this point.

EDIT:

I don't want Mythics to be equal to delve mega boss weapons and relics/empy inferior to Oat(which is a weapon you can get in 20 min~3hr, mind you), that'd be pretty dumb. RME should be a situationally useful weapon, but not required to complete any content.

It's not that they'll be required... no more so than they used to be required.
This update will just bring back the "REM only" shouts for stuff... which never actually left because I know on Odin we have "x Delve Mega Boss weapon only" shouts.
What this update should bring... is the opening up of Delve for more ppl.
For example, a MNK would not be excluded for having a 99/99-2 REM instead of an Oats.
Heck, they might even be FAVORED over Oats depending on how the WSs will factor in...
Ideally... this will make more content available to more people, and offer alternative paths to endgame gear: build a REM, get a Delve weapon, even skrimish+1s were added to offer more people more chances to get into PUGs.

In short, this should make DREMS the top of what weapons ppl will want from PUG members in their Delve runs.