Relic Adjustments - The balancing act

[Byrth]

There has recently been a lot of "Empyrean vs. Relic" going on. No one seems to argue that Relics are better than Empyreans, but people often argue that they should be. I think that each of the three "special" weapons should have a place in the arsenal of a dedicated player, but that they should occupy different roles. I'm going to propose a few changes to keep relic weapons relevant, though I don't think there's any obligation to make them the "best" weapon for every job in every situation.

Always more of a fan of buffs than nerfs, I've chosen to view this less as "Empyreans are too good" and more as "Relics were always barely an upgrade, and many of their weaponskills and aftermaths are worthless." There have always been some things about relics and relic weaponskills that frankly don't make sense. I'll try to outline some changes that I think should be made to fix them, focusing on balance between weapons within a weapon type rather than across jobs.

General/weapon stat solutions:
* Remove the offhand limitation from Relics. (Relics currently lose all their stats besides damage and delay when offhanded)
* Add Acc to the 1H weapons and Attack to the 2H weapons similar to Anni/Yoichi. So 1H weapons would get 35 Attack and 25 Acc at 90, and 2H weapons would get 35 Acc and 25 Attack.
* Increase all relic aftermath durations by 50%. (100TP=30sec, 200TP=60sec, 300TP=90sec).
* Allow TP Bonus (like Moonshade earring) to affect aftermath duration.

Weapon specific changes
Spharai - This weapon is the best defensive option for Monk. In order to facilitate it in that role, adjustments mostly must be made to Final Heaven and its Aftermath.
* Make the Subtle Blow granted by Final Heaven aftermath stack with current Subtle Blow, but surpass the cap. (Subtle Blow caps at 50%).
* Change Final Heaven's fTP to 5.
* Make Final Heaven ignore some Defense like Howling Fist.

Mandau - This is still a very competitive dagger for Thief, especially with the damage boost to Mercy Stroke at 90. It still lacks a little though, because Mercy Stroke and Rudra's Storm are both SA/TA weaponskills only, and Rudra's has the advantage for Sneak Attack due to its DEX mod.
* Increase the Critical Hit rate enhancement from aftermath from 5% to 20%.
* Correspondingly, allow the weaponskill to critical hit even when not forced with SA/TA.

Excalibur - This weapon is currently very very situational. If you want to do better damage while keeping your shield, you use Almace. If you want to be more defensive, you use Burtgang. Excalibur is useful in situations where Almace does bad damage due to level correction and defense. Also, Knights of the Round is worthless as it currently stands. To increase its niche while not overpowering it, I recommend the following changes:
* Increase the Additional Effect: Damage proportional to HP proc rate to 20% and let it generate Enmity for the Paladin
* Give "Knights of Round" an Attack boost (like Steel Cyclone) and have it ignore some level correction so that it does regular physical damage.
* Make "Knights of Round" give a 20HP/5MP Regen/Refresh aftermath (200HP/50 MP per 100TP and 400HP/100MP max per minute).

Ragnarok - This Great Sword has probably improved the most of any relic weapon in the trials from 75 to 90. It still has some fundamental flaws though, mostly with the weaponskill Scourge.
* Scourge must be allowed to critical hit.
* Scourge's aftermath should be +20% Critical hit rate.
* Change Scourge's modifiers to 40% STR / 40% INT. I'm going to take this moment to admonish you for ever making them CHR and MND. Poor Dark Knights, have they not suffered enough?

Guttler - This is still the best Rampage spamming Axe for Beastmaster, so it still has the same niche that it has occupied since its inception. Some changes that wouldn't hurt though:
* Increase Onslaught's fTP to 3.5.
* Increase Onslaught's aftermath to Attack+25%.

Bravura - As Spharai is Monk's defensive option, Bravura is Warrior's defensive option. Still, some changes must be made to give incentive for using it this way and make it a desirable option. Increasing the duration as recommended above is definitely a start, but it needs a little more.
* Metatron Torment is listed as lowering the target's Defense. This effect has been shown to be notoriously inaccurate. Please increase its magical accuracy, and make sure it procs before damage is calculated.
* Give Metatron torment "Ignores Defense" or "Increased Attack" equal to or greater than Steel Cyclone.

Apocalypse - This relic has taken the hardest fall on the route to 90, both because Dark Knight became less desirable and because Haste became much more readily available. I used to love having Apocalypses in my party when meritting at 75 because I barely ever had to cure them. I have two proposals that should completely reverse this:
* Make the 10% Haste from Catastrophe's Aftermath count as a new kind of haste instead of gear Haste
* Change Catastrophe's mods from 40%INT/40% AGI to 40%INT/40%STR.
* Give Catastrophe an fTP of 3.0

Gungnir - Dragoon is a hard one. They really only have two roles, DD and soloer. Drakesbane and Ryunohige are so good that it's not possible to modify Gungnir to be the best DD polearm while maintaining game balance. Because of that, we have to turn to solo. Fortunately, the weaponskill (as it stands) is horrendous in every way and I feel no regret totally remaking it to my specifications:
* Change the mods from 60% AGI to 40% DEX / 40% STR, in keeping with other DRG WSs.
* Instead of Shock Spikes, make the aftermath +20% Parrying rate and make the weapon restore HP to your Wyvern as Catastrophe restores it to the player.
* Make the "Additional Effect: Weakens Defense" on the relic its own category of debuff, so it stacks with Angon.

Kikoku - Ninja can do almost everything. If anything, this is the best tanking/soloing katana.
* Make Blade: Metsu a 4-hit attack, as the animation already shows.
* Like with Final Heaven/Spharai, make Blade: Metsu's aftermath surpass the Subtle Blow cap.
* Increase the proc rate and potency of "Additional Effect: Paralyze."

Amanomurakumo - There is no way around it for SAM. Mythic is the best defensive GKT and Empyrean is the best offensive GKT. I don't really know how to fix this, because I can't think of other roles for SAM to play to. My suggestions would be focus on situations that Hagun used to beat Amano in before, where Attack boost vs. really high Defense trumps superior mods/fTP:
* Make the STP from the Aftermath +15 instead of +7.
* Give Kaiten some measure of "Increased Attack" like Tachi: Gekko and Tachi: Kasha.

Mjollnir - Now we're getting in to mage weapons, which present something of a dilemma. Mages can play a lot of different roles, some of which are independent of their weapon. Mjollnir has long been seen as WHM's prime DD mainhand, which is a role they can play in tolerant parties. In order to be a better DD main hand, Mjollnir would have to make that role more desirable or viable. Also, Randgrith will never out-do Hexa Strike but we can give it a niche anyway. Here are some adjustments to help with that:
* Make the Recover MP from Mjollnir proc for a static fraction of the WHM's club skill. Say (MP recovered = Skill/10)
* Make the Recover MP en-effect take priority over all other en-effects, like Auspice and Haste Samba.
* Increase Randgrith's fTP to 4.0.
* Make Randgrith's Shield Break effect very accurate.

Claustrum - This is both a hard and an easy weapon to save. By making it so you never have to take it off and increasing GoT so it regains more MP than SA-Spirit Taker, this weapon becomes much more viable.
* Add +35% magic damage, +65 Magic Accuracy, and Avatar Perpetuation Cost -6 to the level 90 weapon, scaling up from +20%/+20 and -3 on the level 75 weapon.
* Change Gate of Tartarus' modifier from 60% CHR to 60% INT.
* Make Gate of Tartarus' give 40MP/tick as its Aftermath instead of 8MP/tick (400MP per 100TP, or 800MP/minute max).

Annihilator - This weapon's niche is disappearing, unfortunately. It used to be that the proper way to use this weapon was to alternate Coronach and Slug Shot. For a variety of reasons, this is not as ideal or necessary any more. Also, it has always struck me as somewhat odd that Gun (short range, lower RAcc) gets the Enmity- aftermath while Bow (long range, higher RAcc) gets an RAcc aftermath.
* Change Coronach's aftermath from -20 Enmity to -40 Enmity.
* Beyond this, I am unsure what to advise. I fear this weapon's niche has disappeared, much like the game's use for Ranger.

Yoichinoyumi - This weapon has always been one of the most powerful Relics. Currently, I would say its "niche" is the ability to do low-hate damage with Namas Arrows that rival Sidewinder damage. My only suggestion would be:
* Remove the range-Ranged Attack relationship from this weaponskill so Rangers and Samurais can get better use out of it.

Gjallarhorn - Doesn't really need an update.

Aegis - This is another easy fix. Comparing this shield to the power of the Empyrean shield, the proposed fix is not outrageous either.
* Make Aegis' Magic Damage Taken -% additive, yet separate from the gear/spell -Magic Damage Taken cap of 50%. This means that level 90 Aegis users would take -90% Magic damage.



Two requests to any responders:
1) If you're going to debate a change I'm proposing, please back up what you're saying with math when possible. For instance, don't say "You can't change that weaponskill, it would be incredibly overpowered" without providing an average damage post-change compared to its nearest competitor.
2) Keep in mind that the goal is to make each weapon useful, without necessarily making it the best in every situation.

[lorzy]

i don't know much about relics or all the math around DD, like ftp and stuff, so i can't do anything like fine-tune your values. but i like your ideas, like pretty much everything under "general," and completely agree with the general idea. for instance, i'm all for having mjollnir be an amazing DD club, while yagrush still has its own completely different niche.

[MarkovChain]

Weapon specific changes
Spharai - This weapon is the best defensive option for Monk. In order to facilitate it in that role, adjustments mostly must be made to Final Heaven and its Aftermath.
* Make the Subtle Blow granted by Final Heaven aftermath stack with current Subtle Blow, but surpass the cap. (Subtle Blow caps at 50%).
* Change Final Heaven's fTP to 5.
* Make Final Heaven ignore some Defense like Howling Fist.

Damage taken -, evasion +, occasionally absorbs TPs. I like the idea of a defensive weapon, the counter on the weapon is not really usefull. Could also have an "augment counterstance effect" that would for instance remove part of the defense reduction. Could also double counter damage or something. This would make this weapon a lot more useful than verethragna. Noone cares if you take 5' to kill an NM instead of 5'15.

For all mythic, a simple ajustement is to exchange 300 TP aftermath with 100 tp aftermath.

[Michaeluk]

I really like your suggestions with regards to the general weapon solution though i feel relics should have the hidden odd/ott increased to maybe around 15%. I don't feel this is asking to much considering empyreans get from 30-50% I'm aware they have to use the weaponskill to do this but the weaponskill is generally the best weaponskill for the job in question, resulting in high dmg from the weaponskill alone then the huge increase in dot under the aftermath effect.

With regards to the mandau aftermath i can't argue with you at all it really is pretty terrible at the moment so much infact i hardly notice a diffrence when im under the aftermath effect.

[Insaniac]

I like all your suggestions I would add a few more things though:

I think by lvl 99 all relics should have a 10-15% proc rate of their hidden effect damage. 10% for 3x and 15% for 2x. This would take some of the sting out of empyrean aftermaths but not take that wind out of their sails.

Excal - Make the add effect generate enimty. 20% add effect proc seems a bit high. Potentially 1000+ damage every 5 swings in abyssea. Should cap it's damage if it's going to be going off that much.

Mjollinr - Add some cure potency perhaps. Nothing crazy but at least 10%

Mandau - Personal peeve.. I hate add effect: poison. Give me para, blind, or slow.

Gungnir - The shock spikes are actually decent for soloing any normal mob. Your parry+ aftermath would be fine but I think we could get away with increasing the damage, stun proc rate (already something like 50% on normal mobs), and stun duration on the shock spikes. I love the Wyvern HP restore idea though.

[Rambus]

Aegis:
can be fixed by replacing MT to MDB
or allowing block proc on magic tp moves and spells.

G-horn:

currently It holds no vaule in abyssea, and little outside from the buffs people got from gear and weapons over the years. Only thing I can suggest is that the + bonus on songs need to be higher.

emp instrument:
my understanding that it allows 3 songs vs 2 without bonus. if this is the case then this is almost useless. A normal brd with +1 ( ballad) +2/+3 other buffs would in mose cases out perfrom the emp. Plus it being string I think there is more singing/wind gear then string. I can be wrong on that but point is it needs some extra uuumpft.

brd dagger mythic:
I do not see the point in recasting songs less, could add some bonus to songs like +1 or +2 to all songs.

for all relics: maybe allow hidden effect to happen more.

I like all your suggestions I would add a few more things though:

I think by lvl 99 all relics should have a 10-15% proc rate of their hidden effect damage. 10% for 3x and 15% for 2x. This would take some of the sting out of empyrean aftermaths but not take that wind out of their sails.

Excal - Make the add effect generate enimty. 20% add effect proc seems a bit high. Potentially 1000+ damage every 5 swings in abyssea. Should cap it's damage if it's going to be going off that much.

Mjollinr - Add some cure potency perhaps. Nothing crazy but at least 10%

Mandau - Personal peeve.. I hate add effect: poison. Give me para, blind, or slow.

Gungnir - The shock spikes are actually decent for soloing any normal mob. Your parry+ aftermath would be fine but I think we could get away with increasing the damage, stun proc rate (already something like 50% on normal mobs), and stun duration on the shock spikes. I love the Wyvern HP restore idea though.

my issue on what your bringing on the plate with club is this
I think it should NOT underperfrom magian trials so atm it should have at lest 22%

[Alkimi]

Mjollnir is a DD club pure and simple, wipes the floor with empyrean already so no need to adjust it. Putting cure potency on it is kinda pointless unless it's 25% or something and even then most WHMs are already capped with Surya's +2.

Yagrush had the right idea about enhancing WHM in its primary role and still remains one of the better mythics, even if upgrading it to 90 is semi-pointless since Divine Benison at 90 caps -na spell casting time anyway.

[MarkovChain]

Aegis:
can be fixed by replacing MT to MDB
or allowing block proc on magic tp moves and spells.

Nope that would be pretty weak. If you want to really make aegis useful again make it an automatic 25% resist rate. One idea is to increase your magic evasion to the point that you reach 25% resist rate on IT mobs. Considering you would need ~330 to cap on them and you start resisting at 200, make it magic evasion +225. Maybe it's too easy to cap then with the appropriate barspell from a WHM, so let's say magic evasion +100 would be great without being game breaking. With a good WHM you'll need ~ 80 in gear only to cap and even if you don't bother you'll have a basic 50% resist rate with WHM and 25% /rdm paired with capped mdt.

[Alkimi]

Changing 'Magic Damage Taken' to simply 'Damage Taken' would be a start. And currently the enhanced shield bash from level 90 version seems pointless compared to the lvl75 version.

But it's all irrelevant unless they make PLD useful again.

[Fredjan]

Honestly, one thing I wouldn't mind seeing is the ability to have the ToAU and later jobs be given the ability use relics. As is, Blue Mages, Corsairs, Puppetmasters, Dancers, and Scholars only have mythics/empyreans. I suppose they have their reasons as to why they aren't on relics, but I digress.

Ragnarok - This Great Sword has probably improved the most of any relic weapon in the trials from 75 to 90. It still has some fundamental flaws though, mostly with the weaponskill Scourge.
* Scourge must be allowed to critical hit.
* Scourge's aftermath should be +20% Critical hit rate.
* Change Scourge's modifiers to 40% STR / 40% INT. I'm going to take this moment to admonish you for ever making them CHR and MND. Poor Dark Knights, have they not suffered enough?

I concur. I don't get why a WS can improve a critical hit rate, yet it doesn't crit on its own, not to mention the WS modifiers.

Apocalypse - This relic has taken the hardest fall on the route to 90, both because Dark Knight became less desirable and because Haste became much more readily available. I used to love having Apocalypses in my party when meritting at 75 because I barely ever had to cure them. I have two proposals that should completely reverse this:
* Make the 10% Haste from Catastrophe's Aftermath count as Job Ability haste instead of gear Haste (Sorry, Desperate Blows)
* Change Catastrophe's mods from 40%INT/40% AGI to 40%INT/40%STR.

Yet again, I concur. 40% AGI? A DRK doesn't gear for AGI, much like they don't gear for CHR (See Ragnarok). As you said, yeah, DRK can barely benefit from Catastrophe's aftermath as things are now. I'm more likely to bring INT gear than I am to ever bring MND let alone AGI or CHR. Sure, MND is a Guillotine modifier, but I just take care of that by trying to avoid MND-.

Gungnir - Dragoon is a hard one. They really only have two roles, DD and soloer. Drakesbane and Ryunohige are so good that it's not possible to modify Gungnir to be the best DD polearm while maintaining game balance. Because of that, we have to turn to solo. Fortunately, the weaponskill (as it stands) is horrendous in every way and I feel no regret totally remaking it to my specifications:
* Change the mods from 60% AGI to 40% DEX / 40% STR, in keeping with other DRG WSs.
* Instead of Shock Spikes, make the aftermath +20% Parrying rate and make the weapon restore HP to your Wyvern as Catastrophe restores it to the player.
* Make the "Additional Effect: Weakens Defense" on the relic its own category of debuff, so it stacks with Angon.

Seriously, AGI mod and shock spikes made me wonder, and I'm not even a Dragoon.

Mjollnir - Now we're getting in to mage weapons, which present something of a dilemma. Mages can play a lot of different roles, some of which are independent of their weapon. Mjollnir has long been seen as WHM's prime DD mainhand, which is a role they can play in tolerant parties. In order to be a better DD main hand, Mjollnir would have to make that role more desirable or viable. Also, Randgrith will never out-do Hexa Strike but we can give it a niche anyway. Here are some adjustments to help with that:
* Make the Recover MP from Mjollnir proc for a static fraction of the WHM's club skill. Say (MP recovered = Skill/10)
* Make the Recover MP en-effect take priority over all other en-effects, like Auspice and Haste Samba.
* Increase Randgrith's fTP to 4.0.
* Make Randgrith's Shield Break effect very accurate.

I wouldn't mind seeing this get adjusted. As is, Mjollnir is the best weapon to melee with regardless on WHM. It is better than Empyrean because the aftermath from using Dagan isn't worth taking advantage of due to Dagan doing no damage, and given Hexa Strike's potential it isn't worth giving up damage for.

I also don't think Mjollnir should be given cure potency. It isn't designed with mage like benefits in mind. Yagrush would be more likely to get it, and as things are, it really isn't necessary.

Claustrum - This is both a hard and an easy weapon to save. By making it so you never have to take it off and increasing GoT so it regains more MP than SA-Spirit Taker, this weapon becomes much more viable.
* Add +60% magic damage, +60 Magic Accuracy, and Avatar Perpetuation Cost -6 to the level 90 weapon, scaling up from +20%/+20 and -3 on the level 75 weapon.
* Change Gate of Tartarus' modifier from 60% CHR to 60% INT.
* Make Gate of Tartarus' give 40MP/tick as its Aftermath instead of 8MP/tick (400MP per 100TP, or 800MP/minute max).

Mage stats are something we'd more likely see improvement on with the mage mythics, but I agree regardless. CHR as a mod makes me laugh... no BLM or SMN is going to gear for Charisma just like DRK wouldn't for Scourge.

Gjallarhorn - Doesn't really need an update.

Agreed. Sure, the biggest benefit of this relic isn't as beneficial in Abyssea - MP is nearly infinite and I could cure on my Bard with minimal problems, but people need to remember that endgame content won't stay in Abyssea. Anytime I gear BRD in Abyssea, it's for yellow !! triggers more than the songs. Sure, they still help, just not as much.

And when it comes to Daurdabla, answering a different poster - you only need it on when you're casting the third song. You can still use different instruments to cast the other two songs. You just won't get the 3rd song if Daurdabla isn't equipped.