This thread AGAIN, please, fix WK.

[SpankWustler]

I'm not sure what any of the current mess in this topic has to do with Wildkeeper Rieves at this point but...

If you were an NM computer and some enemy is healing the person your fighting because he pisses you off. do you A) continue fighting the person who is not dieing? or B) run after the squishy person whos keping the other one alive... and yes the NPC's are like that... you don't know all that there is to know about Enimt same as I don't know much about it either... they tell us a couple things and that makes you a master at it? 1) anyone who agroes monster gets put on a list. 2) depending on what you do you generate two types of enimity, one that degrades over tiem and one that stays put (I think) healing can remove you off the NM's list although the mechanics behind it aren't to specific... that's about all we know.. aside from obvious stuff like higher enimity means a more likely chance that you'll get agro...

From as early as late 2007, most exact mechanics of enmity have been rather well understood by many players thanks to some tedious testing done by a handful of players.

TL;DR version of FFXI's enmity system and Omnys's complaint: If you're an NM, you attack whoever is hitting you in the face for the most damage. Pretty soon, enmity caps for everyone hitting you in face and you begin to spin around like a top. If you live long enough to proudly watch your NM grandchildren graduate whatever the NM equivalent of medical school is, then whoever is casting Cure III and Cure IV on the guy hitting you in the face has capped enmity as well.

Because hitting things in the face is an excellent way to accrue enmity and because the same enmity cap applies to everyone, Paladin or any other job meant to fill the tank role has an extremely small niche in FFXI.

Coincidentally, low colonization rate Wildkeeper Rieves are one of Paladin's very few uses currently. Does that mean this topic has finally come full-circle and we can all just post .gifs of cats now?

[Daemon]

I'm not sure what any of the current mess in this topic has to do with Wildkeeper Rieves at this point but...



From as early as late 2007, most exact mechanics of enmity have been rather well understood by many players thanks to some tedious testing done by a handful of players.

TL;DR version of FFXI's enmity system and Omnys's complaint: If you're an NM, you attack whoever is hitting you in the face for the most damage. Pretty soon, enmity caps for everyone hitting you in face and you begin to spin around like a top. If you live long enough to proudly watch your NM grandchildren graduate whatever the NM equivalent of medical school is, then whoever is casting Cure III and Cure IV on the guy hitting you in the face has capped enmity as well.

Because hitting things in the face is an excellent way to accrue enmity and because the same enmity cap applies to everyone, Paladin or any other job meant to fill the tank role has an extremely small niche in FFXI.

Coincidentally, low colonization rate Wildkeeper Rieves are one of Paladin's very few uses currently. Does that mean this topic has finally come full-circle and we can all just post .gifs of cats now?

So does that mean if you cap hate, your enmity levels will not fall down if you back off?

Further more isn't that why some bosses reset hate?

From what I understood from the beginning, controlling hate is something you practice as a team. If mages are generating enmity more than DD, its suppose to indicate that mages need to back off.

The problem with most events, people ignore this factor and assume everyone can just mass zerg mobs to death rather than setup a strategy and overcome this obstacle.

This is why goals are failed and parties are wiped out.

[OmnysValefor]

There are two types of enmity.

Volatile Enmity - This builds and fades with time.

Cumulative Enmity - This builds and stays. The only way to lose this enmity is to get hit or die. Curing generates cumulative enmity, which is why why it does hit a whm, it usually only hits them once, comes back and hits a melee once, and then goes to hit the whm once.

If you don't have a thf, there is nothing anyone can do at enmity cap but turn around and wait a ridiculous time for some of that enmity to fade.

And no Daemon, zerging this crap is the best way to handle it now. Seriously, every decent EGLS has access to, or could have, a well geared Paladin or Ninja. If tanking were worth the effort, we'd do it.

[OmnysValefor]

Coincidentally, low colonization rate Wildkeeper Rieves are one of Paladin's very few uses currently. Does that mean this topic has finally come full-circle and we can all just post .gifs of cats now?

[Daemon]

There are two types of enmity.

Volatile Enmity - This builds and fades with time.

Cumulative Enmity - This builds and stays. The only way to lose this enmity is to get hit or die. Curing generates cumulative enmity, which is why why it does hit a whm, it usually only hits them once, comes back and hits a melee once, and then goes to hit the whm once.

If you don't have a thf, there is nothing anyone can do at enmity cap but turn around and wait a ridiculous time for some of that enmity to fade.

And no Daemon, zerging this crap is the best way to handle it now. Seriously, every decent EGLS has access to, or could have, a well geared Paladin or Ninja. If tanking were worth the effort, we'd do it.

But you just offered a solution to how cumulative enmity can be accomplished. If you party with highly skilled thieves.

But people discriminate jobs, leading to give up on these jobs and use them for what they can do. Then people get use to the idea that these jobs are worthless. Then you never see a truly high skilled player show you the potential of how they can make the strategy work. And when people do invite these jobs, they assume only 1 job is enough to make a judgement over them entirely.

Then you have people assuming certain jobs are meant to be something their not.

If recast time is an issue then wouldn't it make sense to hire more of the same job and rotate?

People don't truly study jobs and bosses to figure out different strategies with the mindset of "this job is worthless because DPS is the only way to go, its not worth the time and effort"

Which to me is just a lazy excuse to get the fight over with as quick as possible. This is why I find partying with NA is boring.

JP parties use different techniques and study up on thinks like

Stand near the wall because ADL can push back players.
Zerg off regular mob to reduce enmity and make the fight messy.
Mass buff using SCH, SMN, COR, BRD to have invincibility in the beginning of the fight that could provide an advantage of getting a good head start.
Use certain jobs to rotate to accomplish Skillchains, enmity control, etc.

[Demon6324236]

I'm sorry to tell you this but WK was already forgotten by SE.

If they forgot it, lets hope like hell they don't remember it or reinvent it once new areas come around... nah, don't think Ill hold my breath on that one.

[OmnysValefor]

But you just offered a solution to how cumulative enmity can be accomplished. If you party with highly skilled thieves.

But people discriminate jobs, leading to give up on these jobs and use them for what they can do. Then people get use to the idea that these jobs are worthless. Then you never see a truly high skilled player show you the potential of how they can make the strategy work. And when people do invite these jobs, they assume only 1 job is enough to make a judgement over them entirely.

Then you have people assuming jobs are meant to be something their not.

The problems with enmity right now.

- Hate cap is way too low.
- Hate cap exists. Really, it shouldn't.
- Tanks can't hit fast enough at hate cap. One reason monks tanked in abyssea was that they hit so fast and hard that when people were hate-capping, the fastest hard hitter kept pinging against hate cap and so took the most hits. Monks also happened to have the most hp, so it worked. Ninjas hit fast, not nearly as hard as monk though.
- Every DD accelerates hate far faster than a tank. They hit harder, and faster, especially compared to paladin.

It really, really, is not worth the trouble to try to pretend the job is useful.

Last time I had to tank on PLD, I went pld/drk to Kurma in a blm-burn. I was in a party with 2 sams, 2 bards, and a whm. I got double march and idr what else and I just stun/flash'd the whole fight. Even though Kurma resisted most of them, I was still generating the hate from it. Even still, the BLMs would pull Kurma out of the melee at least once per fight, because of hate cap.

There really isn't anything about paladin, enmity, or tanking that you can tell me Daemon that I don't already know.

Enmity is broken.

[Daemon]

The problems with enmity right now.

- Hate cap is way too low.
- Hate cap exists. Really, it shouldn't.
- Tanks can't hit fast enough at hate cap. One reason monks tanked in abyssea was that they hit so fast and hard that when people were hate-capping, the fastest hard hitter kept pinging against hate cap and so took the most hits. Monks also happened to have the most hp, so it worked. Ninjas hit fast, not nearly as hard as monk though.
- Every DD accelerates hate far faster than a tank. They hit harder, and faster, especially compared to paladin.

It really, really, is not worth the trouble to try to pretend the job is useful.

Last time I had to tank on PLD, I went pld/drk to Kurma in a blm-burn. I was in a party with 2 sams, 2 bards, and a whm. I got double march and idr what else and I just stun/flash'd the whole fight. Even though Kurma resisted most of them, I was still generating the hate from it. Even still, the BLMs would pull Kurma out of the melee at least once per fight, because of hate cap.

There really isn't anything about paladin, enmity, or tanking that you can tell me Daemon that I don't already know.

Enmity is broken.

To me it sounds like people want to play too fast than take time to do strategy properly.

This is why I've spent so much time spamming the same bosses over and over and learn about pacing my recast timers to knowing the pace of when boss cast spells and conditions like reset hate.

Team work requires homework.

Hate cap is way too low. For tanker? Then it means DD is dealing too much damage too fast.

If that's the case, DD should be purposely gimping their damage by equipping lower level damage gear and weapons or give tanker time to raise enmity.

Otherwise hire 1-2 thief that can rotate stealing enmity off other DD and then SATA off Tanker.

Meaning you are purposely lowering enmity of others and redirecting it onto tanker.

This solves tankers from losing enmity.

Also DD attacking normal mobs for TP provides better control over tanker from losing hate. And gives tanker time to raise enmity at the same time.

Why do this if we can kill faster with DPS?

That can be a hit or miss situation that's why.

In the long run strategy is suppose to be consistent flow of damage with control than attack and pause due to people dying.

Most JPs I know have been doing this for years with the same group of friends and that's why you see some as pro when in reality this is suppose to be basics that everyone learn at low levels, throughout the entire exp phase.

People don't learn this because instant gratification, taking short cuts and being lazy just to get past it as if its a burden.

Purposely Leaving out jobs that provide these strategies all because they rather do things fast and get it over with.

Pacing the fight with strategy requires several things. Not just Zerg and kill with highest DPS and win. That's why I find it boring playing with NA groups.

All DD are power hungry and only care about who can deal the most DMG. That's not thinking as a team, that's thinking as an individual in a group of people who are suppose to be thinking as a team.

The more people you add to the equation, the less control you have or the harder it becomes to control the situation is also why groups fail. Especially when people do not listen.

Most JPs think why you need to have more people when it can be done with less and more efficient and more effective if done right. And this is why a lot of JPs don't want to party with NA.

[FrankReynolds]

Does that mean this topic has finally come full-circle and we can all just post .gifs of cats now?

But you just offered a solution to how cumulative enmity can be accomplished. If you party with highly skilled thieves.

But people discriminate jobs, leading to give up on these jobs and use them for what they can do. Then people get use to the idea that these jobs are worthless. Then you never see a truly high skilled player show you the potential of how they can make the strategy work. And when people do invite these jobs, they assume only 1 job is enough to make a judgement over them entirely.

Then you have people assuming certain jobs are meant to be something their not.

If recast time is an issue then wouldn't it make sense to hire more of the same job and rotate?

People don't truly study jobs and bosses to figure out different strategies with the mindset of "this job is worthless because DPS is the only way to go, its not worth the time and effort"

Which to me is just a lazy excuse to get the fight over with as quick as possible. This is why I find partying with NA is boring.

JP parties use different techniques and study up on thinks like

Stand near the wall because ADL can push back players.
Zerg off regular mob to reduce enmity and make the fight messy.
Mass buff using SCH, SMN, COR, BRD to have invincibility in the beginning of the fight that could provide an advantage of getting a good head start.
Use certain jobs to rotate to accomplish Skillchains, enmity control, etc.

All of that has been done before.

[OmnysValefor]

Go beat 5/5 Delve, and then beat Tojil, and then come talk to us about where the game stands.

Seriously man.

You only have so many party spots. 18 spreads awfully thin.

Let alone Daquwaqa or bee.