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  1. #31
    Player Vold's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    891
    Character
    Voldermolt
    World
    Quetzalcoatl
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Karbuncle View Post
    Well, The thing is, The event was entertaining at first, but as with everything that has no element of randomness, it'll become boring through time, So At least these new zones have different mobs...? So the inevitability of the event becoming boring or being boring Is in itself not a valid defense for being outraged that the NM you're trying to kill is hard solely based on the fact You're ignoring everything that will make it easy.

    I think I should edit/finangle that particular sentence cause it pretty much sums up the point I'm trying to make... You can't be upset the Content you're trying to beat is hard solely based on the fact You're ignoring everything that the devs specifically implemented to make it easy.

    Think that works... Regardless, Hopefully you see what I mean. While yes i can definitely agree to some extent designing content to be hard until you funnel down the correct path is rather lazy, But isn't that pretty much the entirety of most RPGs? Some just have a better way of making the funneling seem fun, and not like funneling at all, FFXI is losing that capability because no one wants to funnel through boring content knowing their carrot on a stick is going to spoil in less than a Month's time.

    I mean, while i can't particularly remember any good comparison off the top of my head, I know for a fact theres many times in games where some enemies would be super hard until you weaken them, or knew their tricks. in this case, we know the tricks, and if you ignore them or avoid them when its so easy to do (even if a tad boring or tedious) its entirely ones own fault for ignoring the means to easy victory.

    I won't say the system is without flaws, I just don't feel complaining that a fight takes too long because you've completely and purposefully ignored every tool at your disposal to make the fight shorter is legitimate by any means. :x
    Sometimes though it's still not that simple because of the entire server's unwillingness to do reive content to make other reive content easier. You and I may understand how to make this stuff easier, and the entire server can understand it, but it won't change the fact that most everyone is opting out of doing saaaaaay Yorcia Weald reives. In that case, while it is the server's fault, one can argue it's mainly SE's fault for designing the content in the fashion they did.

    When you look at the col rates before the last update, I would say it was completely on our heads for not doing certain zones, and while a few hundred hardcore end game people may decide that they want to do things right, their effort is meaningless without the rest of the server helping them.

    That aside, here comes the SoA version of Caedarva Mire called Yorcia Weald and people are like, F that noise. It's going to end up being that one zone per expansion that everyone loves to hate.

    There is a simple solution to the problem, add more drops like capes to all reives, and as much as I am hating the random drop nature of these items, I believe they need to stay that way or else people will get their drops and never do reives again unless they are active enough in SoA that they need a steady supply of bayld. As long as they insist on designing content that requires the server to never stop doing said content to have full benefits of the expansion, they have to properly motivate us to follow their lead. Properly motivate us and there will be no issues whatsoever except when you design a zone like Yorcia Weald that's a chore to get to, shares drops with other new and easier to play in zones, and then when you're there, yeah..... need different drops per zone to properly motivate people. If Yorcia dropped JSE necks or earrings or rings or whatever, it would be at 100% col rate right now, too, despite sucking for fun factor. There's some nice drops from Yumcax, but not nice enough to make most people care to do reives in Yorcia Weald because most people aren't trying to do Yumcax and you need most people doing reives to make any meaningful progress in col rate.
    (5)


    Regular "John" Doe
    - Not on the Community Team

  2. #32
    Player Siviard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    336
    Character
    Siviard
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Here's the simple solution...

    Make all Wildskeeper Reives INACTIVE if the Colonization Rate in the zone is below 50%. This will FORCE the player base to participate in Colonization Reives in the areas where Naakuals are located and prevent these 24+ hour marathon sessions I've been hearing so much about.

    I've been actively doing a Colonization Reive in Yorcia Weald (it's the only one I can find wandering around that blasted forest) trying to get the rate up. Sadly, I am the ONLY PERSON there, yet there are 70+ others in the zone. Guess where they're at. Yes, another marathon session is going on on Shiva server right now. Coming up on hour #13 if I'm not mistaken, as I saw the first shout for it around 1pm CST this afternoon, and it's nearly 3am now.

    ***Ninja Edit*** And I've just been MPK'd by a Paladin who claimed the monsters in the Reive and intentionally moved out of range while I was meleeing the roots believing she was still tanking the Reive monsters.
    (5)
    Last edited by Siviard; 07-23-2013 at 05:05 PM.

  3. #33
    Player detlef's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,640
    Character
    Philemon
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Karbuncle View Post
    I do hate to say it... but yah, It kinda is... You don't eat Raw Chicken because it takes too long to cook, and if you did, you couldn't blame the chicken packaging company for your death. (not only cause you're dead but cause you're stupid for eating it in the first place without proper preparation )

    These things are intentionally designed to be c*ckblocks if Colonization isn't Above 50% or so, as they have massive DT... If people actively try to just zerg-rush it with Colonization rates at 11-20%, Its their own fault, not the designers. These fights were meant to be tediously difficulty without proper Preparation. This preparation being the advancement of colonization.

    This is entirely The playerbases fault for trying to skip the entirety of Colonization to get straight to the goodies. These fights are designed a certain way, and we as a playerbase know how they're designed. Skipping 60% of Colonization because they're too lazy/its too boring. then crying foul when they can't win the reives... I'm literally, yes literally, angry that i share the same breathing air with the type of people who have this logical thought process as It makes me ashamed to be human...
    The SE devs went out of their way to make Yorcia as unappealing as possible.

    -Truly embarrassingly awful map
    -Only 4 colonization reives, which are spread out
    -True sight panopt mobs
    -Colonization reives block your passage

    This is compounded by the issue that Marjami is much, much more suitable for doing reives and therefore attracts people away from Yorcia. Seriously, if you wanted to design a good zone to do reives in, Marjami is what you would end up with. 7 colonization reives which can be bypassed using survival skills if necessary.

    It's generally a pretty safe bet that the playerbase is at fault somehow but in this case, the developers introduced two vastly unequal zones. Nobody should be surprised that one is always at 100% colonization while the other is at 20%. It's not fair to blame the playerbase for this.

    Also, there are many issues with Wildskeeper reives in general that have been touched on in this thread and the Battle Content thread. Namely, the battles are long and unenjoyable, require a specific job and ability in order to efficiently deal damage, have non-refundable entry fees, and have skewed drop rates which very often leave players with a dryad root as the only reward for an entire evening of work. It's not fun, and you're highly unlikely to get the item you want.
    (8)

  4. #34
    Player detlef's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,640
    Character
    Philemon
    World
    Valefor
    Main Class
    BRD Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Siviard View Post
    Here's the simple solution...

    Make all Wildskeeper Reives INACTIVE if the Colonization Rate in the zone is below 50%. This will FORCE the player base to participate in Colonization Reives in the areas where Naakuals are located and prevent these 24+ hour marathon sessions I've been hearing so much about.
    This is not a good idea. On some servers, it simply may not be possible to sustain an adequate colonization rate for a given zone. You're basically locking players out of content. You're saying that Ceizak, Morimar, Hennetiel, Marjami, and Yorcia have to be maintained at 50% colonization rate for all time, otherwise those naakual fights will go the way of Fiat Lux.

    The real issue is that it's fine for naakual strength to be inversely proportional to colonization rate. But that strength should manifest itself in terms of stats and hp, not damage taken.
    (0)

  5. #35
    Player hiko's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    774
    Character
    Meuporg
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Demon6324236 View Post
    We fight at low rates because Reives are boring, slow, and to easy with any meaningful amount of people to be of any fun. They made its DT so high we have to do Reives to make the fights doable. We did not make the boring content, and we also did not make the high DT, this is our fault?
    I'll go with your logic
    - XPing is boring and no more fun than reive
    - farming delve monster is boring....
    => I should be able to successfully take part of a delve boss fight with a naked lvl1

    and imo doing reive is not more boring than tryng to fight a monster and do less than 1%dmg/h
    (0)
    Last edited by hiko; 07-23-2013 at 10:33 PM.

  6. #36
    Player Vivivivi's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    554
    Character
    Bananavivi
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    BLM Lv 99
    Or, just get rid of the regen for Yumcax, and save it for his delve equivalent? It was my impression that Wildskeeper rieves were designed to be challenging, but also designed in a way where anyone and everyone can jump in and with determination, eventually defeat (in a moderately reasonable amount of time). Thus far, this is actually the case with the other four Naakuls, which I think were designed very well! Some of the most fun battles I took part in were in these other four zones and lasted at shortest 45 minutes, and generally at most 2-3 hours (acceptable in my opinion for these zone boss style fights).

    By contrast, it was my understanding that Delve was supposed to be more difficult content that requires extremely well prepared players all following an agreed upon strategy.

    THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE HERE:
    I'm not opposed to challenging content, Delve is designed with a TIME LIMIT and is easy to repeat with entry items easy to obtain.

    Wildskeeper rieves require a costly key item which takes individuals a significant time investment to obtain. Without the ability to homepoint, change jobs to form a better strategy, many players would rather try to stick it out and not waste their effort to get there in the first place, and as a result, we end up with marathons.

    An important point in SE's defense I forgot to mention that I feel is important:
    This is different than the original Pandemonium Warden in a big way- If PW was left unclaimed it would go away, so people had to actively hold it before Twilight gear existed, which led to unfortunate results.

    While yes, technically the Yumcax battle I took part in lasted 27 hours total, there were significant lulls in activity where we all took extended breaks, so for that, I commend SE for at least building that aspect into this system. Also, while ~75k bayld does take time and effort to build, it is nowhere near as difficult as a Pandemondium Key when that was released.
    (0)

  7. #37
    Player hiko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    774
    Character
    Meuporg
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Vivivivi View Post
    Or, just get rid of the regen for Yumcax, and save it for his delve equivalent? It was my impression that Wildskeeper rieves were designed to be challenging, but also designed in a way where anyone and everyone can jump in and with determination, eventually defeat (in a moderately reasonable amount of time). Thus far, this is actually the case with the other four Naakuls, which I think were designed very well! Some of the most fun battles I took part in were in these other four zones and lasted at shortest 45 minutes, and generally at most 2-3 hours (acceptable in my opinion for these zone boss style fights).
    =>WR are designed so people can learn delve boss specials and how to react, counter them
    +
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristal View Post
    Funny thing is, MPKing you lot actually IS a valid tactic. It means you aren't doing things like keeping Yumcax in it's regen state and you actually got time to read the shouts. Yumcax's regen can be countered by dealing wind damage.

    It's also possible they were trying to kill the people stuck in the terrain behind the Oops Moogle, so they could be tractored.

    I was on a 25% col rate Yumcax that was at 98-100% HP for the first 30 minutes while people were getting into the reive. Then people started shouting in every known language (I swear there even was someone shouting in Klingon) what the tactic was, and it died 3.5 hours later (mostly due to low col rate). If you aren't doing wind damage, you kill adds. If you can't kill adds, you support those that do.



    They only last that long if you don't know what you are doing. Which is pretty common at first.
    (0)

  8. #38
    Player FrankReynolds's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,592
    Character
    Mrkillface
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    MNK Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by hiko View Post
    =>WR are designed so people can learn delve boss specials and how to react, counter them
    +
    Ahhh... Yeah, 200 people fighting fodder mobs while summoner pets whack away at something big... So that's why we keep losing to tojil. We need another 190 people.
    (5)

  9. #39
    Player
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    Ru'Lude Gardens!
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    4,310
    Quote Originally Posted by hiko View Post
    I'll go with your logic
    - XPing is boring and no more fun than reive
    - farming delve monster is boring....
    => I should be able to successfully take part of a delve boss fight with a naked lvl1
    No, actually level is boring and that's why people leech up jobs. We take the shortest possible way to get through all of the boring BS thrown in our path so we can get to what is actually enjoyable. In the case of Reives, that means doing Wildkeepers no matter the % because we want the gear, and normal Reives are very boring to many people. At the same time, we all have to level, it must be done, no progress can be gotten without it, as such, we do level, but we do it in the shortest possible method, leeching. The two situations are not so different, but you are using a very poor example of them.
    (2)

  10. #40
    Player Siviard's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    San d'Oria
    Posts
    336
    Character
    Siviard
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    BST Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by detlef View Post
    This is not a good idea. On some servers, it simply may not be possible to sustain an adequate colonization rate for a given zone. You're basically locking players out of content. You're saying that Ceizak, Morimar, Hennetiel, Marjami, and Yorcia have to be maintained at 50% colonization rate for all time, otherwise those naakual fights will go the way of Fiat Lux.

    The real issue is that it's fine for naakual strength to be inversely proportional to colonization rate. But that strength should manifest itself in terms of stats and hp, not damage taken.
    You make it sound like it's impossible. With that attitude, it will be....
    (0)

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