I can't believe I'm going to say this

[Demon6324236]

I love that you were mentioning what an average guy was capable of, then compared 99 spharai to oatixur, but ok, I'm up for the challenge.

That's DMG+, not DMG.

151 base damage vs 196 base damage. 130% the damage. Not 300%.

I admit I did not read it all either, but it is a 300% increase of the weapons DMG, not the DMG a player has, but the weapon's DMG. No idea what is or is not being compared, but I felt it worthy to throw it out there because any weapon before Adoulin has less DMG than the H2H I presented, easy to see a 300% increase in the weapon's DMG. In fact, only 4 weapons in the game that are H2H actually beat out the Relic 99 H2H, Forefront being the most easily accessed to players, costing Bayld, and only being @56 DMG. I have seen almost no win runs on Phoenix as of late, so unless I am missing them, either you have them or you don't at this point. If you don't, then no Rigors for you unless you make your own group of a friend helps you out, so Forefront would be your best, and Oat still has a large amount of damage over that. As I said though, this is all based on the premise you go off of simply the weapon's DMG, not counting anything to do with player Skill contributing to DMG, and also, once this update comes to add skill to the weapon it could very well be a large bonus as well.

[FrankReynolds]

300% more damage? Which weapon are you comparing oatixur to?


Edit: And people who give up because something is more challenging than they originally anticipated disgust me. I don't shy away from a challenge. Why do you? I play the game because it challenges me. Do you play the game because it's as easy as watching a movie? Why not watch a movie then?

That was obviously a gross exaggeration intended to prove a point.

Here's an accurate example based on your H2H damage calculations.

From the test server:

Here's what a elite monk will have

Oatixur
DMG+126 Delay+96
Attack+26
Evasion+27
Hand-to-hand skill+228 Guard skill+232
Physical damage taken-3%

Damage - 200.72 Delay - 96



Here's what a well geared monk will have

Rigor Baghnakhs
DMG+90 Delay+60
Hand-to-hand skill+162 Guard skill+162
Automaton: Accuracy+20 Ranged Accuracy+20 Magic Accuracy+20

Damage - 157.46 Delay - 60


Here's what an average joe will have

Forefront Cesti
DMG+52 Delay+60
Accuracy+15 Evasion+4
Hand-to-hand skill+63 Guard skill+63
Reives: DMG+66 Accuracy+25

Damage - 108.57 Delay - 60



Now back at 75, people were plugging along happily building relics and the game was arguably at it's most popular.


Again, the elite monk

Spharai
(Hand-to-Hand) All Races
DMG: +23 Delay: +86 Attack +20
Enhances "Counter" effect
"Final Heaven"
Lv. 75 MNK

Damage - 58.12 Delay - 86


Again, the well geared monk.

Destroyers
(Hand-to-Hand) All Races
DMG: +5 Delay: +48
Latent effect: DMG +18
Critical hit rate +6%
Lv. 73 WAR / MNK / RDM / THF / PLD / DRK /
BST / RNG / DNC

Damage - 58.12 Delay - 48


Since you felt the need to point out how stupid we are for just going off weapon damage, It's especially worth noting the accuracy gained from all that skill. It could be the difference between going from near capped accuracy to near floored accuracy. Doing 50% - 75% as much damage per hit is bad enough, without missing almost every time. So it's not just the actual weapon damage after H2H skill.

It would have been nice if Spharai had been a little better at that level and there are other relics that were a more obvious upgrade, but the fact remains. Nothing was so far apart that a person who had weapon A could smash things that a person with weapon B couldn't even get invited to do. And from all accounts by the "I'm a bad ass club" the game had far more skilled and professional players back then before abyssea made us all into retarded mouth breathers who just want free welfare checks and Iphones.

So as far as I can tell, the addition of weapons and gear that are massive upgrades over both the previous gear and what the average Joe can obtain has nothing to do with what is keeping the elite playing the game. It actually seems like you guys are the ones who want something for nothing. In reality, you were gonna do this crap anyways. Now they're just giving stuff you don't really need and it's messing it up for everyone else.

I mean, you say that you are the only ones beating anything and we would be lost without you, but the mouth breathers supposedly aren't beating anything with you either, so I'm not sure what the point of that is.

[Mahoro]

So as far as I can tell, the addition of weapons and gear that are massive upgrades over both the previous gear and what the average Joe can obtain has nothing to do with what is keeping the elite playing the game. It actually seems like you guys are the ones who want something for nothing. In reality, you were gonna do this crap anyways. Now they're just giving stuff you don't really need and it's messing it up for everyone else.

How is it messing it up for everyone else when it's clearly possible for Rigor MNKs to beat Tojil? Granted, the rewards from Delve Bosses are a higher step up a ladder than prior events in the game from 2003-2010, but I don't really understand how that is preventing the "well-geared" in your classifcation from doing anything. At best, the Forefront MNK is excluded from Content Level 20 (which I assume is intended by the devs), but the "well-geared" Rigor MNK can win at quite literally everything the "Elite" MNK can.

[FrankReynolds]

How is it messing it up for everyone else when it's clearly possible for Rigor MNKs to beat Tojil? Granted, the rewards from Delve Bosses are a higher step up a ladder than prior events in the game from 2003-2010, but I don't really understand how that is preventing the "well-geared" in your classifcation from doing anything. At best, the Forefront MNK is excluded from Content Level 20 (which I assume is intended by the devs), but the "well-geared" Rigor MNK can win at quite literally everything the "Elite" MNK can.

Because people don't want "Can win" DDs. They want "Will win" DDs. They are adding new monsters / areas and there is a high likelihood that they will be geared towards the top end just like the current stuff meaning that by the time you get from forefront > Rigor > Oats, they will be outdated too. And you still haven't explained why having the lower weapons suck so bad in comparison is of any benefit to the game or the players.

I mean it effectively removes the ability to play multiple jobs for most people. When you have a favorite job that you built / obtained an ultimate weapon for and that causes that job to do 100%+ more damage than your next best job, evades 30% more hits, Takes 30% less damage and has 50% better accuracy (these are just examples) it basically renders every other job that doesn't have an ultimate weapon useless on any new content. It's like they raised the level cap, but made it so that you can only Exp on absolute virtue.

[Mahoro]

The question of why having the lower weapons is of any benefit to the game or players is rhetorical. At the moment, SE's design philosophy is stepwise ladder progression. The lower weapons help in lower Content Levels. Certain things might get outdated over time, but they don't want people to be static.

As for people not wanting "Can win" but "Will Win" DD's, I doubt that's the reaction of the majority of the playerbase that haven't beaten the Delve Bosses yet. With the new update, more of those people will be in a position to handle the Bosses.

[FrankReynolds]

The question of why having the lower weapons is of any benefit to the game or players is rhetorical.

It's not rhetorical. People are claiming that Elite players have to have things the way they currently are or they will quit. I think that's a BS excuse. I think those people just want to be as gear wealthy as possible at any expense. I don't think they will quit if their best of the best weapons are only 10 more damage than the next instead of 50 or a hundred. I think they like a completely lopsided playing field that allows them to call everyone else retarded.

At the moment, SE's design philosophy is stepwise ladder progression. The lower weapons help in lower Content Levels. Certain things might get outdated over time, but they don't want people to be static.

And they would help even more if they were more powerful. Remember. The people we have to worry about blowing through everything with powerful weapons have already done that.

[Yinnyth]

I mean, you say that you are the only ones beating anything and we would be lost without you, but the mouth breathers supposedly aren't beating anything with you either, so I'm not sure what the point of that is.

I'm saying what about who now? The message I'm trying to relay is stop thinking it's impossible for you to beat a delve megaboss. If you want delve megaboss gear, awesome. Now go play the game and make some amount of progress toward your goal.

[Mahoro]

It's not rhetorical. People are claiming that Elite players have to have things the way they currently are or they will quit. I think that's a BS excuse. I think those people just want to be as gear wealthy as possible at any expense. I don't think they will quit if their best of the best weapons are only 10 more damage than the next instead of 50 or a hundred. I think they like a completely lopsided playing field that allows them to call everyone else retarded.



And they would help even more if they were more powerful. Remember. The people we have to worry about blowing through everything with powerful weapons have already done that.

It's rhetorical because you are asking it in order to make a point. Obviously, if you accept as true the idea that the lower weapons suck so bad in comparison (which they do), it wouldn't have a readily identifiable "benefit" to the game or the players. It's just a byproduct of SE's new design. Furthermore, I don't think anybody is claiming that the Elite weapons have to be SO much stronger just to feed into a philosophy that "Elite players have to have things the way they currently are or they will quit." I don't think anybody actually connected those two ideas, and said Oatixurs have to be +50 more dmg than Rigors just to keep the Elites from quitting.

I actually agree with you that I don't think elite players would quit if their weapons are only 10 more damage. But I don't agree that it's doing damage to the game to have them be that much stronger in the first place. It WOULD do damage to the game if the bosses could ONLY be defeated with that degree of weapon, but they obviously aren't.

As for your other point, I don't even know what the debate is about anymore. The lower weapons are being buffed in a couple weeks. We should just see what happens to the general population's ability to beat the content after that.

[FrankReynolds]

It's rhetorical because you are asking it in order to make a point.

Sort of.

Obviously, if you accept as true the idea that the lower weapons suck so bad in comparison (which they do), it wouldn't have a readily identifiable "benefit" to the game or the players. It's just a byproduct of SE's new design.

You're right. Which is why people saying it's fine and people need to just deal with it are full of crap. People need to tell SE that it sucks so they don't keep doing it. People are blaming the players instead.

Furthermore, I don't think anybody is claiming that the Elite weapons have to be SO much stronger just to feed into a philosophy that "Elite players have to have things the way they currently are or they will quit." I don't think anybody actually connected those two ideas, and said Oatixurs have to be +50 more dmg than Rigors just to keep the Elites from quitting.

Saying that Oatixurs shouldn't be changed and that the current situation with only about 10% of the population having any reasonable hope of attaining them without intervention by SE is exactly the same though isn't it? I mean saying things shouldn't be changed even though they know it's bad for the game isn't really a defensible stance is it?

I actually agree with you that I don't think elite players would quit if their weapons are only 10 more damage. But I don't agree that it's doing damage to the game to have them be that much stronger in the first place. It WOULD do damage to the game if the bosses could ONLY be defeated with that degree of weapon, but they obviously aren't.

Technically they CAN only be beat with that gear. It's an 18 man event. Try Jumping on a mule without that level of gear and see if you can get anyone who CAN do it to do it with you. It's like being a millionaire. Technically anyone can do it. In reality almost no one can do it.

As for your other point, I don't even know what the debate is about anymore. The lower weapons are being buffed in a couple weeks. We should just see what happens to the general population's ability to beat the content after that.

We all know that they are going to keep all the gear exactly as far apart as it is now after the update which means that the next weapons / gear that are twice as good as the current will still be unobtainable by the same people.

Character progression is out the window. Essentially almost everyone will forever be at the same point in the food chain forever with this system. SOme will make the jump to the next class, just like in the real world, but for the most part those currently gear poor will forever stay gear poor because they will never have time to catch up.

[Mahoro]

Saying that Oatixurs shouldn't be changed and that the current situation with only about 10% of the population having any reasonable hope of attaining them without intervention by SE is exactly the same though isn't it? I mean saying things shouldn't be changed even though they know it's bad for the game isn't really a defensible stance is it?

That's just the point though. They don't think it's bad for the game, because it introduces a level of challenge they felt was lacking (regardless of whether you think they are looking for false challenges), and it supports organized LS endgame. Others have expressed this viewpoint throughout the thread. If they didn't think that elite weapons that are 10% improvement over the next tier were bad for the game, they won't think elite weapons that are 25% improvement over the next tier are bad for the game either.

Technically they CAN only be beat with that gear. It's an 18 man event. Try Jumping on a mule without that level of gear and see if you can get anyone who CAN do it to do it with you. It's like being a millionaire. Technically anyone can do it. In reality almost no one can do it.

What level of gear are you talking about here? I was referring to people beating Delve Bosses with sufficiently upgraded T1-T5 weapons and gear, which is possible in every instance. It's apparent that SE intended for people to work at the lower tier gear, upgrade them with Airlixirs, and then tackle the bosses. Of course, mages and support don't need to follow that trajectory to be successful.

Character progression is out the window. Essentially almost everyone will forever be at the same point in the food chain forever with this system. SOme will make the jump to the next class, just like in the real world, but for the most part those currently gear poor will forever stay gear poor because they will never have time to catch up.

I don't really know that we can say this with certainty now. There are only two Naakuals left to be introduced, along with the Delve versions of Yumcax/Hurkan and the last two mobs. It's clear the Delve versions of Yumcax and Hurkan will drop improved versions of the respective WKR gear, assuming SE follows that pattern (e.g., a super Ixtab, a super Tamaxchi, etc.). The last two mobs will likely drop those remaining job items not covered by the current Delve Bosses (e.g., a Delve Boss SMN pole), although it's possible one of them will be the "final boss" Naakual. If SE deems those mobs to be Content Level 20, we don't currently know how much higher the ladder will go. Is there a planned Content Level 25? Content Level 30? We just don't know until we get a better understanding of when Adoulin content will be exhausted.