I can't believe I'm going to say this

[Yinnyth]

Right now solo rewards are either useless or just for cosmetics, 6-players rewards are equally useless as 18-person rewards are so much more powerful. The gap between a highly competent player (and successful player) is so high that average/incompetent/unsuccessful players are forced to either buy gil or bot to buy the win from delve (50mil is it?). Content is inaccessible to players. Game is too unfriendly. Player base getting too toxic and elistist.

All Item Level 100+ items are getting a boost soon which will help to close the gap a tiny bit.

Content is equally accessable to all players, the difference between hardcore and casual players has merely become more visible. Why is this a bad thing? Why is it bad that people who devote more time and energy to the game have something to show for it? Does it detract from your ability to play the game if the game has people who are stronger than you in it?

Extremely casual players have reives, quests, new jobs, coalition assignments, mog gardens, and soon monstrosity. Slightly less casual players have skirmish, pick-up delve, and WK reives. Hardcore players have delve NMs and megaboss.

No matter how casual or hardcore you are, this expansion has given you some avenue of advancement for your character. So why do you look at the hardcore players, covet the things they earned by devoting themselves to the game, and think you should have it for a fraction of effort? Why are you incapable of just enjoying the content which was designed specifically for your level of play?

[Xtrasweettea]

Okay, and it's not the world governments keeping people from having food in third world countries. Mark Zuckerberg has a billion dollars. The system is working fine. Those starving kids just haven't learned to social.

How the hell do you function mentally, Frank? The above line doesn't come from any rational thinking person. You sound like those politicians and public fanatics who take debates or topics and try to fit them into a narrative that they themselves and their followers could only comprehend in order to try to win an argument or prove themselves correct on a topic.

First off, the world that this whole thread is about is a fake world. Players are not doing Reives and Delve in the Amazon Rainforest. Players are doing these events in the fake world of Vanadiel. The starving kids in the real world are not lobbying to the president of Zimbabwe to get a DD slot in a Delve run so they can take on the local wildlife for plasm. Mark Zuckerberg isn't rich just from chatting with people. Quit trying to fit everything into a "Real World to Vanadiel" comparison. The majority of the time it isn't necessary to make such a comparison. Your statement doesn't make any sense at all.

Second, Rustic was referring to the term "Social" as the umbrella set of skills used to order to communicate with others. If someone wants to get something from someone else, social skills are needed. Rustic isn't talking about "chatting with others in a Social LS." Rustic was referring to these type of skills:
Diplomacy
Listening
Compromise
Persuasion
etc.

Sorry guy. When I want to "Social" I talk to people. Quit BSing like social is what these linkshells and groups are about. They're about getting gear. When you go to work, it's to make money. Any "Social" that happens is a happy coincidence. Same thing in game. Most people are hanging out with a bunch of people that they really could care less about just to earn something. If it was about "Social", the content would be beatable by "Social" linkshells. Not highly trained professionals.

You are correct, some of those shells are basically businesses: taking in labor from the players for "payment." The "payment" being progression, gear, plasm, etc. In some of those shells, there is no form of casual conversation going on, you can be correct on that. Though, your definition of "Social" is not what Rustic's definition of "Social" is. Which doesn't make Rustic wrong. It makes you wrong for not comprehending what he said. Rustic didn't mention "Social Linkshells" and those types of shells winning these events.

Then again, I am sure what Rustic stated offended you, therefore he is wrong. Which seems to fit your reasoning for replying to his response (as well as many other responses and posts I have seen from you).

Just like how I am jumping to respond to your post. Though I am not offended by your statement: I am just responding out of sheer wonderment of how you function. I am still dumbfounded by the first paragraph of your statement.

[Oddwaffle]

All Item Level 100+ items are getting a boost soon which will help to close the gap a tiny bit.

Content is equally accessable to all players, the difference between hardcore and casual players has merely become more visible. Why is this a bad thing? Why is it bad that people who devote more time and energy to the game have something to show for it? Does it detract from your ability to play the game if the game has people who are stronger than you in it?

Extremely casual players have reives, quests, new jobs, coalition assignments, mog gardens, and soon monstrosity. Slightly less casual players have skirmish, pick-up delve, and WK reives. Hardcore players have delve NMs and megaboss.

No matter how casual or hardcore you are, this expansion has given you some avenue of advancement for your character. So why do you look at the hardcore players, covet the things they earned by devoting themselves to the game, and think you should have it for a fraction of effort? Why are you incapable of just enjoying the content which was designed specifically for your level of play?

The bad thing is the wide gap. Alienation of hardcore and casual players. The gap needs to exist but has to be small. This is sort of like the rich vs middle class and poor people. You want it to be extremely small.

You forget that casual and hardcore players both pay the same amount. If FFXI had a pay to win shop then it's another story. Each players have his known sets of demand. A good business can fulfill most demands. If you tell the casual players that they can not have the same thing as hardcore ones and there is a huge gap between them then they will quit. They already quit a lot. A game with few casual player will be dry and toxic to play.

Casual players want the same reward or at least similar to hardcore players. It's unreasonable but that's what your customers demand. They want the best stuff with the lowest cost. You can't do that or you will be selling your goods for $0. However, you can try to give them something close. That means give rewards that are similar. Sure you can hive hardcore players slightly better gear but never make it clear that casual players will be make inferior cause people will quit.

Also, you should look up accessibility in business/gaming. It generally means lack of barrier to get to. Delve is not accessible by casual players because they don't have time to play and can not win because they do not have enough skills to win. Revive gives a reward too weak compare to Delve and wildskeeper take hours to finish (that's why you have a lot of afks BTW).

[Rustic]

You never needed good gear or much coordination to do old 75 content like sky, sea, dyanamis camp kings ect. A lot of the good players quit. Joe average that never swaps gear and does some horrible damage will never be able to win a delve boss run.

*snip*

After the 75 end game era Abyssea and VW kind of made bad players do ok with super buffs, and temp items. Now that those things are gone in SoA you can see how bad a lot of players that still play really are.

This, basically. And the emperor not only has no clothes once again, but should never be allowed to claim them. In this case, literally. Go after what gear equals your capacity, rather than whining about not being able to get the best in the game...because you're not good enough to do so.

That will certainly include me, but I won't be one of the whiny prats going "I shooooould geeeeet alllll theee geeeeears!".

[Rustic]

The gap between the elite/competent players and the average casual/incompetent players are too high. It's the difference between having fun and quit the game. SE needs to close this gap not 6 months from now, not 3 months from now but right NOW.

If you'd like to know why the gap between the competent and incompetent exists at such a high level...it's because Abyssea did exactly what you wanted. Make it as brain-dead easy as possible to do "elite" content, then pat you on the back for your good job because FFXI is going to be dead soon anyway, now that we have FFXIV!

And then FFXIV 1.0 folded and suddenly FFXI wasn't dead, but the "softening" effects of Abyssea continued all the way into Adoulin. And here we are.

If you don't have tough content, you don't get competent players in any numbers. You get mouthbreathers that THINK they're competent and then can't handle the shock of actually having something that takes real effort.

For them, there's plenty of content, even in Adoulin. But if you think that you should be getting the best of the best gear without skill, may you spend the rest of the expansion AFKing in Reives.

[Rustic]

Sorry guy. When I want to "Social" I talk to people. Quit BSing like social is what these linkshells and groups are about. They're about getting gear. When you go to work, it's to make money. Any "Social" that happens is a happy coincidence. Same thing in game. Most people are hanging out with a bunch of people that they really could care less about just to earn something. If it was about "Social", the content would be beatable by "Social" linkshells. Not highly trained professionals.

And here's that fail in big neon letters.

You clearly can't work with others, because if you could, you'd already be doing so. That's what I mean by "social"

Cannot Play Well With Others. You are anti-social.

FFXI's real skill barrier has always been the ability to work as part of a team- this is a Japanese-made MMO, teamwork is not only important, at the top it's frickin' mandatory...and it's a skill even a mediocre player by other MMO game standards can manage.

The important role is the one the team needs, not what you need. Be flexible. Contribute what's needed, not what you prefer. Don't make excuses or bitch, make what needs to happen, happen. Don't whine that you do less DPS because what your alliance wants is that extra TH from you putting a Thief's Knife into something's face instead of some gawdly D: UBAR weapon.

The reason NA linkshells and players have -always- been weaker on average (not that there haven't been NA LS who CAN do the job and do it well) is because frankly, we're more prone to want to be special snowflakes and "I" players vs. "we" players.

It doesn't matter how many 99's or gear-ups you get. If you can't work well with others, then you aren't going into content where the key is "works well with others" and winning the whole enchilada.

[Yinnyth]

The bad thing is the wide gap. Alienation of hardcore and casual players. The gap needs to exist but has to be small. This is sort of like the rich vs middle class and poor people. You want it to be extremely small.

You forget that casual and hardcore players both pay the same amount. If FFXI had a pay to win shop then it's another story. Each players have his known sets of demand. A good business can fulfill most demands. If you tell the casual players that they can not have the same thing as hardcore ones and there is a huge gap between them then they will quit. They already quit a lot. A game with few casual player will be dry and toxic to play.

You forget that casual players get exactly the same thing for their money that hardcore players get for their money. You get access to a virtual world, and that is all your money affords you. It does not guarantee you're going to have the best gear. It does not even guarantee you're going to be anywhere near the best. Would you complain that other guys in the club get more ladies than you even though you paid exactly the same price to get into the club?

We play the game for entertainment. Do you think delve megabosses are any more entertaining than skirmish? Why would you obsess over something that's too difficult for you instead of enjoying something that's just right for you? Oatixur is not a real thing. It's a virtual item which grants just as much enjoyment from obtaining it as any other upgrade your character might obtain.

[FrankReynolds]

How the hell do you function mentally, Frank? The above line doesn't come from any rational thinking person. You sound like those politicians and public fanatics who take debates or topics and try to fit them into a narrative that they themselves and their followers could only comprehend in order to try to win an argument or prove themselves correct on a topic.

I'm sorry, was the object to lose the debate? Am I running the wrong way coach?

First off, the world that this whole thread is about is a fake world. Players are not doing Reives and Delve in the Amazon Rainforest. Players are doing these events in the fake world of Vanadiel. The starving kids in the real world are not lobbying to the president of Zimbabwe to get a DD slot in a Delve run so they can take on the local wildlife for plasm. Mark Zuckerberg isn't rich just from chatting with people. Quit trying to fit everything into a "Real World to Vanadiel" comparison. The majority of the time it isn't necessary to make such a comparison. Your statement doesn't make any sense at all.

I took the notion that "If anybody is doing this it must be good" and gave an extreme example of how flawed that logic really is. Anything else you read into that is on you. The fact that a few people are doing X content is only good if your goal is to exclude almost everyone. Why would any sane person who is trying to make a fun exciting game purposely make content that most of their paying customers will not use? Does that really sound like a rational way to conduct business?

Forget that you just want to have special gear that's better than everyone else for a minute and explain to me how making joey the pink ninja lose hope of ever reaching a satisfying level of gear and quit is good for the game beyond the prospect of you not having to talk to him in a game that you so adamantly claim is about social skills.

Second, Rustic was referring to the term "Social" as the umbrella set of skills used to order to communicate with others. If someone wants to get something from someone else, social skills are needed. Rustic isn't talking about "chatting with others in a Social LS." Rustic was referring to these type of skills:
Diplomacy
Listening
Compromise
Persuasion
etc.

I know what he was talking about and it's exactly the opposite of what most of these shells use to conduct themselves. There are a few that are made up up close friends who happen to be very good at the game. The majority of them are not. Go google LS applications and read some of the crap these people say to prospective members. I would venture a guesstimate and say that most people won't / can't join these shells because of things that have absolutely nothing to do with their skill which makes the idea that "The best players should have the best gear" absolute BS. It's really about who is in the cool kids club and joining that club has nothing to do with being a good fair decent person.


You are correct, some of those shells are basically businesses: taking in labor from the players for "payment." The "payment" being progression, gear, plasm, etc. In some of those shells, there is no form of casual conversation going on, you can be correct on that. Though, your definition of "Social" is not what Rustic's definition of "Social" is. Which doesn't make Rustic wrong. It makes you wrong for not comprehending what he said. Rustic didn't mention "Social Linkshells" and those types of shells winning these events. [/quote]

I know he didn't mention social shells. I did. I thought I was pretty clear on why I brought them up too.

Then again, I am sure what Rustic stated offended you, therefore he is wrong. Which seems to fit your reasoning for replying to his response (as well as many other responses and posts I have seen from you).

Just like how I am jumping to respond to your post. Though I am not offended by your statement: I am just responding out of sheer wonderment of how you function. I am still dumbfounded by the first paragraph of your statement.

I don't think there is really anything that you or anyone else on the internet could do that would offend me. *Meaningful Discourse is the fastest route to enlightenment on many occasions and I can't think of a better place to have it than on a forum built specifically for that. If I saw yinnyth at a bar, I would probably buy him a beer and laugh about how stupid this conversation is.

EDIT: forgot a word or two in my rush to leave the office.

[Stompa]

There seems to be confusion over the hardcore/casual player thing. In my reference it doesn't correlate to good/bad players. When I say casual gamer I don't mean somebody who can't play the game at a high standard, I mean somebody who because of RL obligations can only play a few hours a night. My LS has about five veteran gamers who can only play for 1-3 hrs per night, but their game skills are super-tight and they know Vanadiel inside-out. Bad players is something else, you can have people logged in all day every day who can't play for toffee. The point is that playing games for 12 hours a day or so, is a LUXURY, it means you have a priveleged life. If you are working double shifts stacking crates or w/e, then login to Ffxi, you might be the most highly skilled gamer on Earth, but you are still tired and can only play 1-3 hours coz u have to get up early for more work.
So you need to make a distinction between good/bad (skilled) gamers, and people who can afford to play games for certain long/short amounts of time. Hardcore etc. doesnt really cover it, coz I know those ppl on my shell log in and play the game really intensely for those few hours then log out, so I guess they are hardcore they just don't have the luxury of Extended-Playtime that some others do. Getting rewards from 10-hour battles doesn't mean you are a better player, it just means you have 10 hours to spare, and sadly most people don't.

[Yinnyth]

Delve megabosses don't require you to sit at your computer for 10 hours to beat them. Delve is 45 minutes long. Everything beyond that is just the prep work which can be done ahead of time. Or is 15 minutes of gathering and 45 minutes of delving too much time for a casual player to set aside?

When I use the term "hardcore", I mean a person who cares deeply about being a better player and shapes parts of their RL around FFXI. For example: making sure they work specific hours so they have time free for linkshell events, spending lots of money on hardware to play FFXI on, spending free time studying aspects of the game or pondering things which give you difficulty.