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  1. #281
    Player Rustic's Avatar
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    Dec 2012
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    468
    Character
    Rustic
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by detlef View Post
    Leveling may have been fun sometimes, but the sheer amount of time spent XPing to level a single job took the shine off of it for many.
    Even with GoV/FoV, I'd easily polish off half a dozen or more levels in the time it'd take me to get 1-2 of them in the old days.

    Abyssea just went into full derp mode by going still faster and allowing people to exp level 30 characters in zones where an even fight would be 75+. And then put a "GoV" bonus on top of that in some zones with Dominion OPs.

    Why an expansion clearly designed for post-Dynamis players (newbie armor L78, after all) had such an insanely low level limit other than to eviscerate midgame is unthinkable.
    (0)
    Old-time player, new-time character- Ragnarok server.

  2. #282
    Player Ziyyigo-Tipyigo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    1,297
    Character
    Ziyyigotipyigo
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    PUP Lv 1
    And the thing is... the level caps used for rank 2 and 5 missions worked very well. There was a ceiling, but you didn't need to be at or above the cap, and you didn't need to go with a full party. The caps were just low enough to require you to bring friends.

    Everything else just feels so broken in comparison. For CoP, full parties at or above cap was the bare minimum required; you'd also need all the "homework" rare/ex items needed for that particular fight, not to mention very particular job balance requirements. With other content like Expeditionary Force, realistically you'll have to take advantage of the fact that buffs don't wipe.

    So instead of a roundabout way to require team play (instead of the flat-out minimum member requirement introduced with Assault), we are given the situation where players whose highest level is X is in no way capable of participating in content capped at level X. Content capped at level X is best left to players with at least one job at 2*X.

    If the CoP level caps had simply been raised 5 or 10 levels I think most players' issues would have been resolved.
    (2)
    Nothing in the above post is intended to disparage Square Enix or FINAL FANTASY XI, or to criticize Square Enix staff; such behavior would be a violation of the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement. Any such violations of the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement should be reported to Square Enix immediately, by using the "Report Post" icon in the bottom-left of forum posts.

    No Moogles were harmed in the making in this post. Stars save the Sibyl!

  3. #283
    Player Richwood's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    25
    Character
    Otomis
    World
    Fenrir
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    Thought I would comment and make this big long post that sounded really thought out and cool. THEN, I realized I am just sad that FFXI is dying. Even sadder that I am playing FFXIV and not really enjoying it as much as I hoped. I been playing every game in the Final Fantasy Series since the 80's; the overwhelming sensation that something I have loved for so long has turned into a bad relationship heading for divorce, just depresses me.
    (6)

  4. #284
    Player Spellcaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    13
    Character
    Spelljr
    World
    Lakshmi
    Main Class
    SCH Lv 99
    why they take so long to do a server merge... the game is almost unplayable because all servers are empty/not enough players to do current content
    (1)

  5. #285
    Player Renaissance2K's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    California
    Posts
    134
    Character
    Rentwokay
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 75
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo View Post
    Nobody actually liked the level caps. Nobody.

    Want to know how I know? Beastmen's Seal battles, ENM battles, ISNM battles, Expeditionary Force, Garrison, Eco-Warrior... they all still have level caps. And nobody does them any more, because they still have level caps. Hell, we wouldn't even have seal storage NPCs at all if people actually wanted to do the fights, but even back then people hated level caps enough to drop Beastmen's Seals as fast as they got 'em.
    The only purpose the level caps serve now is to artificially inflate the difficulty of the battles in question. If any Joe could just run down and do Royal Jelly, Under Observation, or Up in Arms at the drop of a hat at Level 99, the few valuable items that drop from those battles would be worth next to nothing because they'd be as common as dirt. Throw this on top of the fact that, in the current economy, nobody seems to care what they wear for the first 99 levels, so the value of those rewards is deflated even further.

    Blaming the level caps for the unpopularity of those events is like saying the Virtual Boy failed because it was red. People don't do those events anymore because the rewards aren't worth it for the amount of effort they require. Expeditionary Force is probably the worst offender. Let's get an alliance together, fight waves of difficult baddies, and be rewarded with... Conquest Points. To buy gear that we'll outlevel in five minutes. Nah, let's do Eco-Warrior instead and get... a Dragon Chronicles page, even though we can go to Gusgen Mines and get twice as much EXP in five minutes. Ditto for ENMs and ISNMs - they require time to assemble a team, and the rewards are either worthless or too niche to be worthwhile.

    Garrison's an interesting example. Some people still do the uncapped Garrison in Vollbow. Not because the Garrison is uncapped, or because the rewards are worthwhile (they aren't), but because it can be soloed. We're about to see a whole bunch of these existing battlefields get high-level versions, but if they still require six able-bodied heroes to complete, and if their rewards can't hold a candle to the Delve and Skirmish drops, interest is going to fizzle quickly.

    Saying "nobody liked the level caps" (note the past tense) is pretty easy to do now when it's virtually impossible to do anything worthwhile in the game until you have a job at 99. (It's really silly that we call that Endgame, considering it's really more like the Begingame these days, right?) Level caps means I could participate in "real" content without having to grind, grind, grind my way to the top, and it also meant that I wasn't being a leech just because I was playing with a half-dozen other people with blue job levels. If I had to kill crabs for a year before I could fight in anything that really felt like it belonged in the scope of a Final Fantasy game, I probably wouldn't have stuck around. But I could go to Promyvion from the moment it was released, and the place gave me the creeps, as it should. I could do an Eco-Warrior when I saw a shout and beat up some big, blobby newbie eater without being forced to sit and watch. I could do a Garrison (and I did... hundreds of them) and fight off waves of mobs at once; something that only otherwise happened if you had a bad puller, a band camp, and lots of bad luck. And you know what? When I finally got to 75, and I was participating the large scale battles that we take for granted these days, I had half an idea of what to expect. Compare that to today, where people get to 99 today in a matter of hours, but all they know how to do is open presents.

    If leveling had always been as easy as it is now, you're right that level caps would be pretty silly. (Although leveling is pretty easy in FFXIV, and there don't seem to be many complaints about the level caps you encounter along the way, except for the usual band of "WHY CAN'T I BE AWESOME ALL THE TIME RAWR" content bingers.) Saying that they were always a bad idea may be a little lacking in perspective; they were only implemented in cases where the consequences would be beneficial in some way, either by making rewards more valuable or by allowing new players to be acceptably included. Saying everybody hated them is flat-out wrong.
    (2)

  6. 10-05-2013 02:02 AM

  7. #286
    Player Ziyyigo-Tipyigo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Windurst
    Posts
    1,297
    Character
    Ziyyigotipyigo
    World
    Sylph
    Main Class
    PUP Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Renaissance2K View Post
    The only purpose the level caps serve now is to artificially inflate the difficulty of the battles in question. If any Joe could just run down and do Royal Jelly, Under Observation, or Up in Arms at the drop of a hat at Level 99, the few valuable items that drop from those battles would be worth next to nothing because they'd be as common as dirt.
    OK, that's three examples. What about every other Beastmen's Seal battle. Screw everyone who might want a mannequin because someone, somewhere might get a Kraken Club?

    Besides, you can't do the battles if you don't have the seals, and you can't get the seals if you go from 30 to 99 in Abyssea.

    Saying "nobody liked the level caps" (note the past tense) is pretty easy to do now when it's virtually impossible to do anything worthwhile in the game until you have a job at 99.
    I pointed to the example of the addition of seal storage. Storing Beastmen's Seals with an NPC only makes sense if you have more than 99 (anything less takes up one inventory slot regardless), and you're only going to get more than 99 seals if you don't actually use them. There was a need for S-E to add seal storage because players were more likely to drop seals than spend them.

    Level caps means I could participate in "real" content without having to grind, grind, grind my way to the top,
    You apparently missed where I pointed out that a player who's highest level is X cannot realistically participate in any content (still) capped at level X. Someone who's hit level 20 for the first time has no hope of winning a Cloudy Orb battle. These battles require capped skills, top-notch gear (particularly gear dropped off of NMs), and the resources to acquire them, which effectively means having to level to ~40 first. And this is ignoring the fact that someone who's only just hit level 20 only has six jobs.

    This has always been the case. A player fresh from Valkurm Dunes was never ready to win a mannequin piece, and a player fresh from Yhoator Jungle was never able to clear a Promyvion.

    But I could go to Promyvion from the moment it was released
    ... says the Summoner...

    I could do a Garrison (and I did... hundreds of them) and fight off waves of mobs at once
    Success with a level 20 Garrision requires a Bard (need level 30 to unlock) with Horde Lullaby (not attainable solo at level 20).

    When I finally got to 75, and I was participating the large scale battles that we take for granted these days, I had half an idea of what to expect.
    Yeah... I'll remain silent on this one and see if anybody else can say they shared your experience with/as new members starting out in a Dynamis linkshell for the first time.

    Saying that they were always a bad idea may be a little lacking in perspective; they were only implemented in cases where the consequences would be beneficial in some way... by allowing new players to be acceptably included.
    That. Never. Happened. By the time they had the proper main job, support job, gear, spells, combat/magic skills, and gil to spend on consumables (let alone a synth to make their own) to actually make a difference in that content, they were hardly "new players" any more.
    (2)
    Nothing in the above post is intended to disparage Square Enix or FINAL FANTASY XI, or to criticize Square Enix staff; such behavior would be a violation of the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement. Any such violations of the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement should be reported to Square Enix immediately, by using the "Report Post" icon in the bottom-left of forum posts.

    No Moogles were harmed in the making in this post. Stars save the Sibyl!

  8. #287
    Player Renaissance2K's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    California
    Posts
    134
    Character
    Rentwokay
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    SMN Lv 75
    Again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo View Post
    Nobody actually liked the level caps. Nobody.
    You're wrong. I bet everybody hates them now, but when they were first implemented, they served a very valuable purpose, as I explained, much to the chagrin of that loud top 3% of FFXI-dom that never seems to be happy about anything. The group that complained about level caps then is probably complaining about their RME weapons now.

    Everything pre-Adoulin (save for select sections of Abyssea and Voidwatch) is so irrelevant now, I wish they'd uncap your laundry list of content if only so I could play around with some of that weird or awesome gear that I never got a chance to use back in their hayday. But back then, it made perfect sense. The population wasn't nearly as top-heavy as it is now, and the game's economy didn't begin and end with strips of Dhalmel Leather used to get Watercrafting. And Meatballs.

    Want another history lesson?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo View Post
    ... says the Summoner...
    I don't know if it was because I hadn't leveled SMN to 30 yet or because it was during that era that everybody assumed SMNs were useless, but when I was first invited to Promyvion, I came as a RDM, we took a full alliance to the top, got lots of aggro on the way ("What do you mean 'True Si-WHAM"), and got our ass kicked. Promyvion still creeps me out, and CoP is still my favorite expansion pack.

    Seriously, though, I'm the last person to which you want to snark about preferrable jobs. My winning party for CoP 8-3 (back before they nerfed the difficulty and added rewards) had a PLD/DRK, two RDMs, and an underleveled WHM (me) in it. I love SMN, and have wanted to cap out on SMN since I started playing the game, but every time I'm ready to buckle down and gain some levels, Square-Enix releases new for the job that makes me need to leapfrog with another job to make any progress. But that's another story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo View Post
    Success with a level 20 Garrision requires a Bard (need level 30 to unlock) with Horde Lullaby (not attainable solo at level 20).
    I actually laughed when I read this. I know everybody loves to throw BRDs at things, but seriously, you don't need Horde Lullaby to beat a Garrison; not at Level 20, or any level.. You don't even need any form of sleep. I guess it can work if you're fast enough, but why would you want to sleep a bunch of mobs that can be so easily woken up by that mob of NPCs that you don't control? Especially when the mage NPCs open with Diaga so often!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo View Post
    That. Never. Happened. By the time they had the proper main job, support job, gear, spells, combat/magic skills, and gil to spend on consumables (let alone a synth to make their own) to actually make a difference in that content, they were hardly "new players" any more.
    My mistake. I should have said "low-level players" when I actually said "new" players, though relative to a lot of the veterans doing most of the complaining, "new" is still a perfectly acceptable way to describe them.

    I'll remind you, though, that keeping up with that laundry list of things you mentioned was part of the leveling process; not the "some waste of time I'll get to once I ding 99 in a few hours" that it is now. Eventually, if you never brought your Oils to get to {Dangerous Camp A}, or if your {Stabby Weapon B} skill was underleveled, or if you still hadn't bought {Impressive Spell C}, it'd get in the way of your progression; either because your reputation caught up with you, or just because - hey! - things go a lot faster and a lot more smoothly when you do that properly.

    ===============

    Arguing about the past is really a bit silly, though, because the point you were trying to make and the point of this thread is to talk about current issues with FFXI. Ideally, in a perfect world, Square would be updating all of the game's content to fit the game's current environment. Sure, level caps had a place back in The Before Time, but now, they're just holding us back from content that currently is little more than decorative time wasters.

    That goes for Eco-Warrior, Garrison, BCNMs, ENMs, Assault, Salvage I, Einherjar I, and pretty much everything other piece of content that 99.99% of the FFXI population doesn't care about. If I want to blow an afternoon trying to get an Inventory -1 from some XYNM that nobody's ever heard of, that's my beef, dagnabbit.
    (1)
    Last edited by Renaissance2K; 10-05-2013 at 05:34 AM. Reason: I don't know what a "lout" is...

  9. #288
    Player Spectreman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    223
    Character
    Neferflash
    World
    Asura
    Main Class
    THF Lv 99
    Drops could get a bit better for new ppl. Honestly who farms BCNM/KSNM nowadays to make gil?

    Still i can't imagine how painful it should be for a newbie to get phalanx and utsusemi:ni without money and limited seals. Its just another mechanism of torture that SE forgot to remove.
    (1)

  10. #289
    Player Damane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    715
    Character
    Damane
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    DNC Lv 99
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectreman View Post
    Drops could get a bit better for new ppl. Honestly who farms BCNM/KSNM nowadays to make gil?

    Still i can't imagine how painful it should be for a newbie to get phalanx and utsusemi:ni without money and limited seals. Its just another mechanism of torture that SE forgot to remove.
    in all honesty they should have gotten rid of the bcnm lvl caps when the lvl 75 lvl cap was lifted on chars. i would do some BCNMs solo just for some things, but the lvl cap on those is hindering me and I dont want to bug the few friends left playing FFXI with such tiny bullshit like BCNMs that drop crap :/. all BCNM drops are garbage for nowadays standarts, EVEN kraken club is garbage it was allready pre adoulin but now with the new ilvl weapons its total utter shit. its only purpose is now if you have some WS quest open you need to collect WS points for (and thats only for singlehanded WS quests! or ranged ones!)

    considering the current population i am facing during EU prime time SE needs to do somethign about:
    - Remove BCNM lvl caps so they can be solod by high lvl
    - Remove Salvage entry restriction of 3 people
    - Remove Assautl restriction of 3 people
    - Remove Einherjar entry restriction of 6 people.

    its so bad atm that you cant find 2 additional people to enter somethign that requires 3 people :/
    (5)
    Last edited by Damane; 10-05-2013 at 06:00 AM.

  11. 10-05-2013 09:41 AM

  12. #290
    Player Ziyyigo-Tipyigo's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Windurst
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    1,297
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    Ziyyigotipyigo
    World
    Sylph
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    PUP Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Stompa View Post
    Mannequins are given out free now with login points. So are Bseals.
    Event's over.

    And Kclub bcnm is...
    With the right job, the right gear, the right skills, the right consumables, blah blah blah...

    The question isn't "Can it be done?" but "Should it be done?" Is the reward worth the effort/challenge? For most players in most situations, the answer is undeniably "no," and I'm not convinced it was ever any different.

    Erase and Utsusemi: Ni wouldn't command such high prices on auction if the purchasers didn't feel the price was worth the avoided effort. And they have always been expensive.

    You can convert the KC/HKC you get in Aby into beastmen's seals in PortJeuno. Or take your level 99 and go kill the mega low-end EP mobs which still drop bseals to you at 99. The flys in meriph[s] etc. drop lots of bseals and kseals at 99.
    The only way to reliably and consistently get Beastmen's Seals is to EXP on monsters low enough to drop only Beastmen's Seals, rather than monsters for which the once-per-5-min lottery is competing with other flavors of seals. If the person I was responding to really wants a metric that keeps the "Aby burn" crowd out of BS battles, Seal farming alone should be more than restricting enough.
    (1)
    Nothing in the above post is intended to disparage Square Enix or FINAL FANTASY XI, or to criticize Square Enix staff; such behavior would be a violation of the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement. Any such violations of the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement should be reported to Square Enix immediately, by using the "Report Post" icon in the bottom-left of forum posts.

    No Moogles were harmed in the making in this post. Stars save the Sibyl!

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